Post by girlseeksghosts on Jan 18, 2019 13:11:10 GMT
Well I have noticed a massive increase in the number of these groups setting up mainly on Facebook and on YouTube. My interest in the subject will never die and I feel myself being sucked into joining these groups just to watch what they do. It fascinates me no end. But can anyone give me a brutal answer to the question as to why I as a definite sceptic (I really do not believe in ghosts and I want evidence before I believe in anything) have suddenly become so interested in these somewhat amateur investigations.
There was one person who lets say was friends with a few of these 'investigators' but he wanted to do everything in a truely scientific manner. I found the man fascinating, but basically in the circles he (well and me now to an extent I guess) were moving in, he didn't last a couple of weeks. No one except me and around 10 other people could be bothered with him. Anyway he's gone!
Wanting to find proof of some sort of afterlife which I do and actually believing there could be are miles apart. I wonder if there are more people out there who don't believe but follow others out there who do believe and search for evidence. I must admit to being interested in psychology and sociology to some extent. I follow 'chats' with complete and utter sheep who believe all they hear and see. But what is in my own psychology, I would love to be a believer but I don't (fullstop)!! I'm hoping its just a stage I'm going through
Anyway, hope this is not too out of place here, but ages since there was a discussion on mindset of believers and non-believers and fools like me who watch with great interest but don't believe. Maybe its an age thing as I get older I get more sceptical but then since my mum died part of me definitely would love to believe and perhaps thats just it, and an example of how maybe grieving people are drawn to mediums and psychics (which by the way I am not, thank goodness!!) Really would love to hear other people think of this.
"If you don't control your mind, somebody else will"
Well I have noticed a massive increase in the number of these groups setting up mainly on Facebook and on YouTube. My interest in the subject will never die and I feel myself being sucked into joining these groups just to watch what they do. It fascinates me no end. But can anyone give me a brutal answer to the question as to why I as a definite sceptic (I really do not believe in ghosts and I want evidence before I believe in anything) have suddenly become so interested in these somewhat amateur investigations.
Curiosity. Deep down I think most skeptics want to be proven wrong. For me I like the challenge of debunking stuff.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Post by girlseeksghosts on Jan 21, 2019 13:52:56 GMT
Thanks for replying Jon. I do have to agree, perhaps that is it with me... curiosity, but we all know what that did
I did wonder if a few other people might reply as I wanted to know if there were anymore non-believers who still watch and are interested in the subject. I get frustrated at family and friends who keep saying why do you watch that rubbish if you don't believe in it. I was listening to Richard Felix, you may or may not know he does a regular little chat thing on FB. Anyway he has his own very strongly held beliefs (which I know everyone is perfectly entitled to) I actually like him and love listening to him and his ghost stories. But anyway he said he knows 100% for sure that there is something after this life etc etc... and our loved ones are all around us I said well how come only a few choose to come through? He was having quite a lot of questions and I genuinely believe he may not have seen my question as he was talking about one thing for ages lol so I didn't get an answer as to why he thought that might be.
It does fill my bored moments and to be honest its more amusing than most of the tv shows these days. I follow a few urban explorers and love abandoned places etc... but did have a great laugh as I watched a 'live' on fb last night with some very funny explorers turning ghost busters... Don't think there will ever be a serious investigation progam I can watch on tv... as of course nothing would ever happen... oh well hey ho... glad to get it out of my system Anyway, as you were!!
"If you don't control your mind, somebody else will"
There's nothing contradictory in enjoying these programmes (after all they do say at the beginning that it's for entertainment only )
I'm a complete skeptic and a total atheist who actively disbelieves in supernatural phenomenon and the existence of a soul but there's nothing I like more than a good ghost story both written and on film. The only time it becomes unhealthy is if you start to lose your objectivity and skepticism and from what I gather from your posts you're not in danger of losing either anytime soon.
Post by girlseeksghosts on Jan 22, 2019 19:38:24 GMT
Thanks for your reply Adey67. Thats me a total atheist who used to be a paranormal investigator but nothing ever convinced me of anything No I can't lose my skepticism and I wont. Can't say I 'actively' disbelieve and as Jon says I wish we were proved wrong one day, but until then, I shall continue to enjoy my horror films and anything else ghostie
"If you don't control your mind, somebody else will"
When I read all these threads of all the investigations that the skeptics investigate it always gives me the same conclusions. A person looking of trying to buy a pair of shoes and visits every corner shop looking around, watching, listening and can't find a pair anywhere and then telling everyone that there is no such thing as a shoe shop. Skeptics searching for pain relief tablets and looks into every shoe shop looking for pain relief tablets but can't see the shoes. I have a good laugh at these investigators on all the skeptic web sites and groups. When the day comes and it is their time to visit the big shoe shop you are going to look a right dumbo's when they find they been looking in the wrong places for all them years and then having to explain. Can you please explain to us all here that there is no such things as shoes shops and you go around telling everyone we don't exist? Black, size 8, extra laces Please.
Our species evolved in Africa, and all our ancestors spent millions of years either in the trees or, after a major climate change on the grasslands. Here, the monsters were very real, and actually were out to kill them. Night was the time of the beast, when the lions, hyenas, leopards etc hunted. I think this is why we are so afraid of the dark, and why children make up monsters before they even know what a monster is.
As a child, I had a witch who lived under my bed and would try to grab my leg as I got in.To escape her clutches I had to take two long strides, then perform a swallow dive with half twist to land on my mattress. The witch is all points, pointed hat, nose, chin, teeth, fingers etc, and I guess these are metaphors for the claws and fangs of the African predators. I suppose you could call it a racial memory, we had a very long time as a prey species and the fears run deep.
I am at a loss to explain the modern person's willingness to believe in psychics though.
When I read all these threads of all the investigations that the skeptics investigate it always gives me the same conclusions. A person looking of trying to buy a pair of shoes and visits every corner shop looking around, watching, listening and can't find a pair anywhere and then telling everyone that there is no such thing as a shoe shop. Skeptics searching for pain relief tablets and looks into every shoe shop looking for pain relief tablets but can't see the shoes. I have a good laugh at these investigators on all the skeptic web sites and groups. When the day comes and it is their time to visit the big shoe shop you are going to look a right dumbo's when they find they been looking in the wrong places for all them years and then having to explain. Can you please explain to us all here that there is no such things as shoes shops and you go around telling everyone we don't exist? Black, size 8, extra laces Please.
A common argument but flawed. No one is denying that shoe shops exist, in fact there is empirical evidence that they do exist. So even if I went looking and couldn't find any, it would still not be logical to state they do not exist, because clearly they do, and their is credible evidence to back up their existence. Not to mention that I do not need to rewrite the laws of physics for them to exist.
Unlike ghosts which have zero evidence of existing, in fact there is not even a credible scientific hypothesis to explain how they could exist. And on top of all of that, the worlds most sensitive piece of scientific equipment (LHD) has not detected anything ghostly, and if I was a dead scientist that is the place I would be waving my arms about shouting "look at me, I am here"
So no, your analogy fails.
So to summarise, your argument is just because they have never been found, doesn't mean they don't exist, well that could refer to anything that you just make up. No one has ever proven that there is NOT a flying Loch Ness Monster who is also invisible, and speaks only in Welsh, and plays a banjo, but you cant say it definitely doesn't exist just because no one has found it.
You MUST start with a credible hypothesis first, that is the start of any scientific study.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
This is disputed, in fact the human race evolved independently in various parts of the world. How else could people get to Australia for example.
I am at a loss to explain the modern person's willingness to believe in psychics though.
Easy to explain, like with any religion, that we cant explain we give supernatural meaning. Psychics however are just magicians, they fool people, they use trickery to create faith. That is the main difference between spiritualism and other religions.
Earlier migrations out of Arica led to the evolution of other Homo groups, but our own species, Homo Sapiens Sapiens evolved in Africa and either absorbed or displaced other groups, such as Homo Neanderthalensis after leaving Africa about 70 - 100,000 yearss bp. That's all according to Dawkins anyway, I don't feel inclined to argue with him.
They probably reached Australia by walking, at a time when sea levels were much lower, about 50,000 years bp during the last ice age.
With the psychic comment, the operative word is 'willingness'. i was trying to suggest their belief is an irrational choice, which is made in opposition to all available evidence.
Post by girlseeksghosts on Jan 30, 2019 12:28:15 GMT
Jon thank you so much for answering those points so clearly. I began to reply and found myself in a spiral of waffle and so deleted it. You answered exactly what I would have liked to say only so much better Oh, but I would also add I don't know/agree/have better opinion on the origins of mankind, despite reading the theories.
"If you don't control your mind, somebody else will"
Earlier migrations out of Arica led to the evolution of other Homo groups, but our own species, Homo Sapiens Sapiens evolved in Africa and either absorbed or displaced other groups, such as Homo Neanderthalensis after leaving Africa about 70 - 100,000 yearss bp. That's all according to Dawkins anyway, I don't feel inclined to argue with him.
They probably reached Australia by walking, at a time when sea levels were much lower, about 50,000 years bp during the last ice age.
I cant see people walking tens of thousands of miles. I think more likely homosapiens evolved at different times. There is physical differences between the various main races which would explain that.
With the psychic comment, the operative word is 'willingness'. i was trying to suggest their belief is an irrational choice, which is made in opposition to all available evidence.
I personally think that the vast majority of psychics know what they do is rubbish, i have talked in the past about "The Moment of Justification" a time that all psychics reach where they go from believing what they do is real, to understanding it is not.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Jon thank you so much for answering those points so clearly. I began to reply and found myself in a spiral of waffle and so deleted it. You answered exactly what I would have liked to say only so much better Oh, but I would also add I don't know/agree/have better opinion on the origins of mankind, despite reading the theories.
As for origins of mankind, no one knows for sure as new discoveries are made all the time that throws off previous timelines.
Just recently they found ruins in places like Cyprus and Crete that throw off previous theories of the first civilisations and so on.
I often see that meme that shows an identical skeleton and under it says the various races, white, black, asian and so on. But this is incorrect as there are differences between an average human skeleton from an African and say that of an average Chinese person. Skull differences and so on.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Hi Jon, Not quite sure where you're coming from with this,
"I cant see people walking tens of thousands of miles. I think more likely homosapiens evolved at different times. There is physical differences between the various main races which would explain that"
Antarctica is the only landmass which has not been permanently colonized by humans. The last major landmass to be occupied was the Americas, and they were reached 15,000 years ago at the minimum. They crossed from Siberia by way of a land bridge which existed at that time. Either that, or they followed the coastline in small boats. Once in Alaska walking was their only option and they reached all parts of North and South America amazingly quickly, apparently within 1,000 years.
The differences between racial groups are entirely superficial, eye shape, skin colour, body mass etc are all explained by natural selection, random mutation and sexual selection. Any member of any group can interbreed with any member of any other group, which means we are all the same species, or race. Species which evolve independently of each other are unable to produce fertile offspring. A horse and a donkey can produce a mule, but mules are nearly always sterile. You probably know of the story about a mule giving birth and it being seen as a bad omen just before Xerxes invasion of ancient Greece.
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Feb 3, 2019 14:21:54 GMT
To be honest this is not a subject I DONT know that much about, so I will not debate further as I will only make a fool of myself.
I will say that clearly we are all the same species, but in my opinion we did not evolve in just one place. Various human ancestors evolved independent of each other and as they then mixed a reproduced, that created the various differences.
We know neanderthals and humans mated successfully and created fertile off spring.
Humans as we know them today are only a few hundred thousand years old. The continents were not connected at this time, and no one had boats to travel so no, Native Americans and Chinese did not mix. And evolved independently of each other but yes they did have the same ancient ancestors from millions of years ago.
I have no idea the point i am making or what I am saying, feel free to ignore all.
When I read all these threads of all the investigations that the skeptics investigate it always gives me the same conclusions. A person looking of trying to buy a pair of shoes and visits every corner shop looking around, watching, listening and can't find a pair anywhere and then telling everyone that there is no such thing as a shoe shop. Skeptics searching for pain relief tablets and looks into every shoe shop looking for pain relief tablets but can't see the shoes. I have a good laugh at these investigators on all the skeptic web sites and groups. When the day comes and it is their time to visit the big shoe shop you are going to look a right dumbo's when they find they been looking in the wrong places for all them years and then having to explain. Can you please explain to us all here that there is no such things as shoes shops and you go around telling everyone we don't exist? Black, size 8, extra laces Please.
This is ridiculous, where should they be looking then? Your shoe shop analogy totally falls down, why? Because they ARE looking in the right places, if you want to find evidence of ghosts you look in dwellings and places reputed to be haunted that's exactly where paranormal investigators go or to use your analogy they go to the shoe shop to find shoes trouble is the shoe shop is always empty.
You want to believe in ghosts and the paranormal? Knock yourself out go for it and enjoy yourself while you do it but it doesn't make it real or true. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You just saying stuff is not evidence its an unsupported assertion.
I actively disbelieve based on there being insufficient evidence and the fact that postmortem existence is contrary to some of the laws of physics biology and biochemistry.
Can I prove definitely that ghosts and paranormal activity don't exist? The answer is no I can't but then I can't prove there isnt an invisible green dragon living in my garage either, you see philosophically where there are gaps in knowledge there is always more than a zero % chance of something being possible but just because something is philosophically possible do not make it plausible.
You have made the assertion this phenomenon exists therefore the burden of proof is entirely yours, now prove it and I'll happily review the scientific evidence and say I was wrong but I won't hold my breath if you don't mind.
I said well how come only a few choose to come through? He was having quite a lot of questions and I genuinely believe he may not have seen my question as he was talking about one thing for ages lol so I didn't get an answer as to why he thought that might be. 
) 
No I can't lose my skepticism and I wont. Can't say I 'actively' disbelieve and as Jon says I wish we were proved wrong one day, but until then, I shall continue to enjoy my horror films and anything else ghostie 