Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Apr 23, 2008 9:32:27 GMT
I am curious William. Before you came out, it sounds like many people suspected you were gay, this obviously was because of your mannerisms, or campness i assume.
Can i ask a question, why? Why does being gay, make someone have camp mannerisms? And in some gay men the classic "gay voice" too.
Ihave never really understood why sexual orientation would have an effect on mannerisms etc.
I know many gay men put it on, or exagerate it a lot.
Just the other day I was in Pisa, and we saw this little kid standing in a "gay manner" you know hand on hip etc, we both joked and said how he would be gay when he grew up, then he started walking, and he minced like i have never seen before. Now this kid was mabe 9 or 10 years old, and i would put money on him being gay when he grew up, even though at his age he probably wouldnt know what being gay was.
Now of course he may not grow up to be gay, but i am sure even if you saw him you would say the same as me.
I know it was kinda cruel of me to make these comments, even if in private.
I am just fascinated as to the connection of campness to gayness, and why it even exists at all, especially as i know a few gay men who demonstrate no stereotypical characteristics at all
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Hi Hellyp and Jon, thanks for your responses. I really appreciate them. First Hellyp, thanks for your comments. I agree with them fully and please don't think I thought for one second you were criticising people who come out publically. I agree that it is so silly if not understandable that people still feel they have to come out publically and it can still make news. I love your story about your father in law Hilarious. Basically, I was just writing from my perspective and what it was like for me.
Jon, you are so right about the camp mannerisms that many gay people have. You know what I wish I knew the answer and I don't. I totally agree with you. I think some people put it on, others it may be exaggerated and I seriously think some people have always been born with the mannerisms but sadly I have often tried to answer the question but can't. Also I often wonder why some gay men are camp and others are not.
I can though speak for myself on the issue if not for anyone else. Before I came out I was actually camper and believe it or not kind of dropped some of the campness when I came out? Why? I suppose some of the gay people I mixed with were very camp and part of my campness before was part of the innuendo I had without actually having to come out.
Though many of my mannerisms are camp, what you see in my videos is an exaggerated version of me. It's me but just an exaggerated version. If you were to meet me in the flesh or in a bar you would see a less camp side to me. You would also see someone who is quite deep and can be quite serious in the right circumstancesas well as someone who can be funny and camp it up with the best in other circumstances.
Was I naturally camp? I do not know if I was born camp or gay but what I can tell you is looking at videos and photos of me as a boy at a young age. My mannerisms were so very very camp. I even had long curly hair and spoke with a very John Inman and Larry Grayson voice with a lisp. Limp wrists the whole way. I was also very slim and effeminate. At around the age of 8 or 9 I used to try on my mother's old dresses and mince round the house speaking like a woman. I remember my mother once telling my father they thought I would grow up to be a transvestite. I assure you I have no desire to be a woman. I am all man.
So Jon I think you could be right that the young boy you saw in Pisa could well be gay. I've also seen young guys I just knew would grow up to be gay. It is something to do with their mannerisms and the general way they carry themselves, style themselves and even dress. You are not cruel suspecting he may be gay but just making an honest observation and one I observed in other people.
As I say I do not know whether I was born gay or not but I can tell you though I had no idea what being gay was I clearly remember at the age of four or five I fancied an older boy called Max who used to ride his bike in Kensington Gardens. I had a huge crush on him. I used to have dreams about the pupils in Grange Hill. It felt natural to me but something told me it wasn't the sort of thing you mention in polite company.
Throughout school I had crushes on boys and would stare at them, brush past the arm and even when I was 11 or 12 blow the odd kiss. I did not know what being gay was until I was probably say around 12 or 13 and realised other guys wer attracted to the same sex.
As I say I had the campness and effeminate behaviour for as long I can remember though until I was say 15 or 16 I was unaware of it. When I realised what campness was and that I was camp I suppose I then used it as a defence mechanism. I put on quite a bit of weight when I was around that age and had a few issues and was at times very down about life. Deeply depressed in fact. I used it as a cover to appear bubbly.
When I came out I developed a less camp side as I felt I'd gained confidence and didn't need it as a defence mechanism. But in answer to you question I don't have a definite answer except to say I think some people are born camp, some develop it and some exaggerate it. Why gay men have it in particular I am not certain and would love to know. Any way I'v probably told you way more about me than you'd want to know but that is part of my story.
"Dont forget to cover your bum, or you'll get a red bum"
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Apr 23, 2008 13:32:58 GMT
Thanks for your reply William. It is interesting the whole camp thing. You say you dropped certain mannerisms, to be less camp, this would go to suggest that the actualy act of campness is a choice and not something you are born with as such.
Maybe through seeing someone on TV that you liked, like John Inman for example, everyone replicates mannerisms of people they admire, whether it is me raising my eyebrow when The Rock was popular, or you being limp wristed after watching John Inman.
I dont think that immitating someone you admire can have an effect on your gayness, but can on campness.
I would suggest that if you wanted to appear to be completely non-camp you could quite easily, and over time adopt it as your natural state, whether you wanted to or not is a different discussion.
For the record i do not agree with the whole nature vs nurture thing, i also do not believe that once you are gay or straight you can never turn, everyone is unique and people can and do change.
Hell bobdezon used to be called Shiella!!
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Lol Sheila sounds quite fetching. I'll never see Bob in the same light though it;s more fun in the dark. It's actually quite interesting. When I was younger I was never conciously camp. Yes I used my campness in some ways to appear more cheerful and to deflect from other things in my life. It just seemed very natural but after I came out a made a decision to be less camp so I suppose the choice I made has been to be less camp.
Even when I try and drop camp aspects of my persona I still betray myself and I'll do something such as a limp wrist or a high pitch laugh but I have certainly toned it down. It even happened last Thursday. I was at the birthday of an elderly father of a friend. I was on my best behaviour keeping everything straight laced. I almost dropped my knife and let out a bit of a very feminie high pitched scream and the limp wrist went into action. I hadn't even noticed until it was pointed out to me.
What you see in my videos is probably closer to the real me but in the flesh I tone it down not simply because I want to hide my sexuality but I fully understand that those that appear camp are often taken less seriously such as John Inman, Larry Grayson, Julian Clary, Graham Norton, Dale Winton, Alan Carr and our beloved eugh Brian Dowling. Campness is seen as more comedic and though I don't want to totally lose my campness I also accept that if I wish to be taken more seriously I have to tone it down to an extent unless of course I want to work at Butlins or Children's BBC which I don't.
Up until the age of 15 or 16 I was pretty much unaware of my campness. When I hit 15 or 16 I decided to play on it and not tone it down but use my camp humour to my advantage though it backfired a few times. I actually became conscious of campness when Dale Winton started hosting Super Market Sweep and I suppose that alerted me to the fact that some of my behaviour was very similar to his. I even had a mad crush on him around 15. Crazy I know.
Then probably up to the age of 18 to 22 I probably exaggerated the campness a little. The campness you see in some of my videos is probably closest to what I am naturally like but yes off camera and on more serious topics I have certainly consciously toned it down. I feel in what I do being very camp would be inappropriate.
So whilst I don't believe I chose necessarily originally to be camp, I have chosen to be less camp so in that sense campness is a choice in that you can choose whether to be camp or not if you need to. But as I say even when I try and act very masculine some of that campness comes through at times. Lol. But yes over time I think I could probably do a My Fair Lady and get rid of any trace of campness.
I have a southern english accent and at times some find it quite public school. When I first came to Australia the Aussies had this phrase "He's not gay. He's just English" as many Aussies find the southern english well spoken accent very effeminate and camp. I do find that quite amusing to hear how others perceive accents.
I so agree that the nature vs nurture argument is a waste of time and neither do I believe anyone's sexuality is necessarily set in stone. Things are subject to change and yes at the age of 11 or 12 I had a huge crush on a girl. The only time I have. She lived near by and I used to ride past her house constantly on my bike in the hope of seeing her. I had a reunion with her a few years ago after arounf 15 years and she picked out I was gay within 10 mins which was funny. She said it was my mannerisms and my eyes. I had what some call 'gay eyes'. Strange I know. Hard to explain but many gay men some how give their sexuality away in their eyes. There is a certain look ;D
"Dont forget to cover your bum, or you'll get a red bum"
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Apr 24, 2008 0:01:32 GMT
Well we now all about Williams history and how he came to be etc.
Its a hell of a lot more interesting than my story but pales in comparisons to Bobs story. I darent mention the gerbil incident, neither mind his fascination with midgets (oh s*it that was me)
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Tbh, my interest in midgets is far greater than yours. I have been known to "Steve Irwin" them, and taking footage with faux australian accent narration. I love em, my brother was shot with an arrow by one of the original time bandits.
Great post Kensington, interesting reading and informative. I attended my friends' civil ceremony the other week and a lot of gay couples were at the celebration. I noticed that most of the couples consisted of an older very 'non-camp' and not sterotypical of a gay man with a partner who is much younger and very much the 'queen'. In fact I also found out that a few of the older men had been married to a woman in the past. I wonder if their experience of a heterosexual marriage was so bad that it put them off ALL women for life, or they have always been gay but never (until later life) felt comfortable coming out. Perhaps I will ask them next time we meet, before I get too drunk!
Hi Moonriver and many thanks I also find a lot of older gay men have younger boyfriends. Many of the older gay men I speak to who have been married tell me they got married because they were part of a generation where it was expected that they'd marry and have a family. Some were in denial, some lived a lie knowing full well it was men they were attracted to and others did not start finding men attractive until later in life.
I think there are various reason why older gay men are often found with younger men. I have two theories. One is that many of the older men came out later in life and it is almost as if they are reliving their youth and, though I hate the term, it is a form of rebirth. They are attracted the guys they would have been attracted to in their youth. In London in Sydney when I go to bars where younger people hang out you'll find that many of the older gay guys who go to these bars have only recently come out and they want to relive their teens or twenties. Often being with a young guy can make someone feel young.
Why do younger guys like older guys? Well some people obviously fancy older people but I think many young guys feel that an older man has more experience and is also more ready to settle down as well as often being more financially secure and without many of the problems much younger guys have. I've also met younger men who are with older men and occasionally I get the idea they almost see them as a father figure just like some younger women have older husbands. Perhaps they lacked a proper father when they were young etc. They often feel more secure with an older man.
And yes I too find that often though not always that you'll get a more masculine guy with a camper guy. Maybe opposites attract or perhaps some how they balance out each other but yes I too have frequently noticed it. ;D
Last Edit: Apr 24, 2008 17:39:36 GMT by kensington
"Dont forget to cover your bum, or you'll get a red bum"
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Apr 24, 2008 17:47:52 GMT
I think you are thinking too much. Some people like older people, some like younger, I dont think there is a larger amount in the gay community.
And for your last comment, this is one i have never understood.
Yo will have a masculine man with a femenine man, why not just go with a woman then? And i am not talking about the sex here, i am talking about love. A gay man falls in love with another gay man who is a lot like a woman, only flat chested and with a dick. It seems really shallow that a gay man would only like other men who were like women but had a dick
Same with Lesbians, you always see either two butchies together, or a Butch and a Fem,
Oh well its beyond my understanding to be honest.
me I blame the greeks, they are the cause of EVERY single debate we have on this whole forum, from the oracles to bloody Alexander, you can always find a way to blame the greeks.
Good job i am Cypriot
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
I've also met younger men who are with older men and occasionally I get the idea they almost see them as a father figure just like some younger women have older husbands. Perhaps they lacked a proper father when they were young etc. They often feel more secure with an older man.
I know my young gay friends with older partners feel secure. Two have been rejected by their fathers and are often very child-like (being told to behave/being financially looked after/having someone in authority 'control' them). So I do accept the 'father figure' scenario. All I can say is those fathers are missing so much by denying their gay sons. My friends are extremely sensitive men who under their show of being the fun loving queen are hurting. I love their company, they are witty, fun, intelligent and at times totally outrageous!
OMG, I like younger men - does that mean I'm perceived as a mother figure? I hope not.
You can't depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.
Lol Alexander had a lot to answer for as does George Michael . It's definitely a complex issue and I don't know all the ins and outs so to speak and perhaps I am analysing it and thinking about it a bit too much. But yes some people simply fancy older guys for sure as you mentioned but from those I've spoken to there are sometimes other reasons why many older and younger guys like each other, such as experience, security, trying to relive their younger years. I think the fact that many older gay men who came out late in life or were married before plays a big part in their liking of younger men as they want to catch up on what they feel they missed out on. In their minds they are 18 or 21 again in terms of living that gay life style.
We all have reasons why we are with the person we are with. Some it is just simply attraction both mentally or physically, for others it is something else and for others it can be both. There is no one answer. Everyone is unique for better or worse
It is funny that we often think camp men are very much like women but if you actually put a woman and a camp man together they are often quite different. I think camp men behave like some kind of stereotype of a woman but not actually like women behave at all in reality. Few women walk around with limp wrists, calling everyone dear and filling their conversations with constant sexual innuendo and a camp Kenneth Williams ghastly type of laugh.
I think the fact that a gay man has a flat chest and 'dick' plays a big part in why another gay man fancies them as well as the fact that camp men really aren't like real women but more a sort of stereotype which we have sort of perhaps been conditioned to believe is that of a women. And yes drag queens play on that which perhaps again is partly why campness is associated with being like a women.
Whilst we may see many camp men behaving like women the gay men who fancy them don't fancy women. If they did they might well be with one. I think it was Kenneth Williams or Quentin Crisp or maybe both who said anyone whose behaviour was not seen as typically less than masculine was labelled as feminine hence perhaps the idea camp men are seen as feminine when in fact they are not really like many real women at all. They are just not masculine. Just very camp and not butch or manly.
I seem to have become the correspondent on all things gay so perhaps I better shut up before I typecast myself though I think it may be too late for that It's all very complex and there aren't any hard or fast rules and I certainly don't have all the answers or even many of them. I can only talk from my own perspective. Any way I better shut my cake hole before I feel the wrath of the Gods
"Dont forget to cover your bum, or you'll get a red bum"
Moonriver, you can mother me. Yes I too have friends who have been disowned by their parents simply for being attracted to the same sex. It is very sad when anyone is disowned for what ever reason whether straight or gay. Such a waste. You are also right some times when you scratch below the surface of that fun bubbly campness you'll find some very insecure people are definitely hurting and have been through a lot of pain. I have been very fortunate but some of the stories I've been told are actually heart breaking. Any way I said I'd shut up
I saw a video on you tube once about the brain (lost the link) which said that the amygdala in a homosexuals' brain is larger than that in a heterosexuals. The amygdala controls emotions I believe.
And for your last comment, this is one i have never understood.
Yo will have a masculine man with a femenine man, why not just go with a woman then?
Hmmmm.... because they're gay, perhaps?
'All through this short life we give of ourselves, giving and giving and slowly diminishing. Leaving a mark that will gradually fade, ash in the breeze, snowballs in negative.'