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Post by morganp on Aug 2, 2009 19:05:44 GMT
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Post by fluffet on Aug 3, 2009 6:47:23 GMT
That will be getting sky plus'd Morgan ....thanks for the heads up ....interested to see this
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Post by fluffet on Aug 9, 2009 19:37:01 GMT
Taping this and watching it right now ....was interested to see the approach taken but also so far incredibly saddened by the stories of some of the people interviewed . Two in particular although they say their involvement in the spiritual church and spiritualism in general has given them hope and comfort over the years have an incredibly sad and melancholic air about them ...there is this underlying feeling of loss and sadness that seems to come across watching them. As i type this Keith the main subject of the documentary is steeped in his belief so much so that he says he has no fear he is so sure of his fate, he brushes off the words of others he knows in the community such as a local publican who after talking to him and commenting that he cant continue the conversation because he feels its bordering on the fantastical and lunacy says to camera "hes a nice guy but hes deluded".Yet there is none of the familiar arrogance or showmanship tendancies from Keith ...he shuffles off from the encounter looking sad a forlorn rather than angry or fired up on the defence. What ive felt so far watching without going into the many other avenues id like to once ive watched more is the overwhelming sadness that seems to emmanate from many of the attendees of the church . All of them have had some kind of tragic or troubled experiences in their life....all of them claim their involvement in the church and spiritualism has helped , cured or at least improved their lives in some way yet the most interesting thing for me is its far from evident in their demanour and in their expression of their experience . There is also a mention of stephen turoff at one point from a guy who claims he cured him of cluster headaches ...there is a doctor who unbelievably has told a patient he could see her dead father when she came to him for depression....there is Keith and his bulging forehead which he claims is his "third eye"...there is a lady who suffers from many psychological problems who claims spiritualism has helped her , but all of them in their interviews have revealed the very reasons i believe they have become so involved and steeped in the beliefs that they claim to hold in varying degrees.
A need to be included , a need to feel loved , a need to fill their lives with something anything that they can emmerse themselves and loose themselves in and more than anything else an overwhelming sense of loneliness and grief in its many different forms feels ever present when watching it .
The interviewer and programme maker seems to like many before him have gone down the route of " what can possibly be wrong with a belief that comforts a greiving widow " peppered with a little skeptical comment here and there , but most revealing are the comments of the everyday people he interviews who are skeptical , not scientists or academics but people who work or live around the area such as the publican i mentioned earlier.
I cant tell whether when faced with such vulnerable and sadly touched characters as Keith the programme maker felt a gentle approach was all he could offer or whether he perhaps wanted to put over the idea from the start that somehow "whats the harm if it helps them" but if it was the later all he acheived in my opinion was to highlight the vulnerabilty of those who choose spiritualism as their whole life and indeed the inner sadness that despite thier claims of hope seems to envelope them still .
Theres a lot more to comment on in this programme which im sure once ive seen it again will become more evident or feel more important to mention but to be honest so far all i feel in regards to the subjects such as Keith is a feeling that as a society we severly let down so many suffering from mental illness , loneliness , other debilitating conditions , lack of education so much so that by adulthood there are legions of damaged , lonely , desperate people out there with little or no support or outlet who amongst many other things fall to these kinds of beliefs to somehow see them through ...sadly it seems that other than offering them some human contact and friendship it results in further isolation and sadness in the long run when they become surrounded by others who are in the same boat equally as unable to help and shunned by those who find their beliefs so ridiculous and fantastical that they shy away from wanting to help them faced with their constant and increasingly deluded talk about their beliefs.
Will be interested to hear what everyone thinks of this programme .
But my first impression other than the sadness was that yet again a great oppertunity was missed by the maker to really question their beliefs and the validity of their claims that it benefits them .
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Post by tomroberts on Aug 9, 2009 21:12:31 GMT
fluffet
I enjoyed reading your thoughtful comments. I only caught the last 30 mins or so, so it would be unfair of me to say much, though I agree about the melancholic air, from what I saw.
I might have misheard (tinnitus and some hearing loss) but didn't Keith say to the pub man that in spirit world, flowers are much more vivid (or something similar), and there are no insects.
I don't think that was explained, but I wonder why that would be. Plants yes in spirit, but not insects. Odd.
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Post by fluffet on Aug 9, 2009 21:52:41 GMT
Hi Tom ,
You heard right , Keith did say flowers were much more vivid etc But gave little in the way of an explaination as to what he meant by that or his reasoning behind it, will need to watch again but in the same conversation he said to the publican that his children had chosen him (the publican) as thier father , that they decided on their parents as they wanted the experience of him as a father in particular presumably above the other billions they could have chosen and that it was his belief that this was the case for every child born. Again there seemed little in the way of explaination as to why he beleives this but as the programme wore on and Keith revealed that his father had hated him since birth due to little more than the fact that he had been born with blonde hair whilst his siblings had dark hair giving his father the idea that perhaps Keith was not infact his biological son i had to then wonder if Keith applies his theory to himself why on earth would he have "chosen" a father who would treat him in this way ? Or for that matter why would a child "choose" parents who would go on to abuse , mistreat or even murder them in later life ? I doubt Keith had thought it that far through but if he had it fills me with even greater sadness that he might believe he somehow "chose" to be born to a father who's treatment would go on to shape and damage him so in later life. He claims that a day after his father died he came back to him "in spirit" to apologise for his treatment of Keith stating that this was the only way someone could move on in the "afterlife" as guilt prevented them from "moving on"...but in reality i feel that perhaps his fathers "appearance" to him was more indicative of Keiths deep wish to hear what he unfortunatly never heard from his father in life ...acceptance and apology...his need to finally feel there was some good in him and that all the years of ill treatment towards him had been acknowledged and somehow his father was now the good man he wished he had been in life.
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Post by tomroberts on Aug 9, 2009 22:32:33 GMT
Blimey fluffet, are you a psychiatrist or something?
A bell rang in my tiny mind about the idea of children choosing their parents. Ages ago I seem to remember that the "legendary" Sylvia Browne came out with the same idea. And that the holocaust victims decided they would be just that before they were born.
But that is another can of worms...............
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Post by bobdezon on Aug 9, 2009 22:43:24 GMT
In spiritual circles, there is a belief that we choose the life we lead before we are born. The more painful and tragic is it, the more it enriches our soul. Misery is wealth in the afterlife, but its just a bastardisation of the karmic wheel. We allegedly live several incarnations until our soul reaches spiritual purity and we become ascended masters.
Of course, its all bulls*it, but this is why people like derek acorah claim they believe that disabled people choose their disability prior to birth (as attonment for previous misdeeds).
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Post by morganp on Aug 10, 2009 8:56:45 GMT
I thought it was a poignant and slightly sad insight into the lives of people who take comfort and hope from their belief in the afterlife. Having said that it didn't really break any new ground or tell us anything we didn't already know and I'll wager that it was a snapshot of life that is repeated throughout the other Spiritualist churches across the country. We saw people who were trying to reconcile troubled childhoods and difficult life experiences with a belief that all would be rosy on the other side of the spiritual divide once the physical shell was cast aside. I didn't quite know what to make of the Doctor and I suspect that the material that was left out would give a far greater insight than what made the final cut but possibly for ethical reasons we weren't given the bigger picture for Dr. Rubenstein. The episode the Doctor described relating to the woman with depression just didn't sit right with me since I'm not sure it would be considered best practice to be telling patients that dead relatives are party to the consultation and I'm sure there was more to it than we were allowed to see. Also the story the Doc related about seeing the spirit guide with the funny lips many years previously could easily have become distorted beyond recognition with the passing of time with human memory being the far from perfect repository to store the exact truth of actual events. I particularly liked the brief exchange between the down to earth pub landlord and the Keith 'third eye, spirit guide Su Ling' character with the landlord probably voicing my own summing up of the people involved in the church - 'nice people but slightly delusional'. I was more uncomfortable when it touched on the faith healing aspects of the church, particularly the tree surgeon guy who had had his headaches taken out and put into a bucket by the psychic healer Stephen Turoff and who said that Turoff could be seen to turn transparent when performing his healing - I'll wager that there are no video cameras handy when this miracle happens. There were undoubtably more hokey moments and these will always surround the subject of spirit guides (thank you Sam). I've never understood why spirit guides are always slightly exotic, usually ancient foreign characters almost pantomime in nature and never dead welders from Gateshead or purchase ledger clerks who led mundane lives in suburban backwaters such as Cheam or Barnoldswick. The Doc landed lucky with his intuitive insight into the filmakers Grandad being associated with music and his back pain mysteriously clearing up after a healing session but then again long term aches and pains can go away just as mysteriously as they appeared - the fact that it happened around the time of this documentary could be mere coincidence. All in all an enjoyable watch which for me strengthend my belief in the inherent optimism of human nature and our need to find meaning in life and comfort in death. I just felt sorry for the insects....... morganp
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Post by fluffet on Aug 10, 2009 13:07:24 GMT
;D Nah Tom ...just cursed with a bloody constant need to over analyse any poor sod to within an inch of their life hehe Of course i dont know Keith or his full history and so anything i concluded from the brief time i saw him here is purely based on what was expressed in the programme . To be honest i think i am always drawn to the "what makes people believe " question in these cases, the human nature side of things fascinates me and how events and circumstance coupled with many other contributing factors can be key in how we live our life and the choices we make hence always looking for possible reasons within that may at least go some way as to explain where people such as Keith's beliefs and experience is coming from.
Ive read many such explainations of just this very thing Bob from the usual spiritualist books and medium manuals etc over the years and its something thats never sat well with me for much the same reasons as you mentioned .This idea that people choose the life they will lead before they are born as some sort of karmic ladder climbing that will eventually result in them ascending to the dizzy heights of enlightenment having experienced life from every possible angle just sticks in my craw ....it conjours up ridiculous notions of some catalouge of experience to be flicked through like some kind of karmic argos catalougue - "ohhh ive never been a blind nun from Milton Keynes with a secret crack habit ....that should bump up the ole karmic learning curve points ...put me down for 79 years of that " Presumably their thinking is you just carry on like a bad season of quantum leap until the magic number of lives or experience has been attained and someone gives you the golden key to the executive spiritualist washroom . Ok i know not exactly how they describe it as such but how much experience is enough ? How is the level of enlightenment measured ? Its all just a fantastical story created to fit in with a belief system that seems to never need any real explainations other than " cause thats just how it is ".
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Post by Mike on Aug 10, 2009 13:37:36 GMT
In spiritual circles, there is a belief that we choose the life we lead before we are born. The more painful and tragic is it, the more it enriches our soul. Misery is wealth in the afterlife, but its just a bastardisation of the karmic wheel. We allegedly live several incarnations until our soul reaches spiritual purity and we become ascended masters. Of course, its all bulls*it, but this is why people like derek acorah claim they believe that disabled people choose their disability prior to birth (as attonment for previous misdeeds). Well my next life is going to be one hell of a crap-hole then
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Post by fluffet on Aug 10, 2009 21:03:48 GMT
Thats the impression i got too Morgan , this most likely is a mirror of what occurs in most spiritualist churches across the land ....and that there are countless Keiths out there adopting the same need for involvement in them. I think thats key ....this idea that everything thats wrong or has gone wrong in their life will be fixed in the afterlife ...and sadly as one of the women said she clings to the hope that she will see her father again and that all her illnesses will be gone ...she even mentions that there will be better social opertunities perhaps once shes gone. Its heartbreaking . I agree ...Dr Rubenstein may find he has a few questions to be answered today after the airing of this show and i dont doubt for a minute that there was much cut from what was allowed to be shown or related. Once again Morgan i couldnt agree more , i suspect if pressed for an answer the spiritualist would give an explaination along the lines that only those who have ascended to a higher level of enlightement would be allowed to be guides hence the mystical and exotic character of most guides , their interpretation of enlightenment being american indians/shamans/or in the case of sam ethiopean tribesmen who lend themselves to their idea of being further evolved in the woo ladder of wise. I however would say that its all a load of bunkum ....i often wonder what nationality guides are for mediums who ARE american indian , ethiopian tribes men or blooming shaman....perhaps they see your dead welder as exotic and guide worthy
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Post by onewingedangel on Aug 10, 2009 22:24:19 GMT
Flowers are symbols in the 'spiritual' world i.e. red and white roses...............love and peace but that is surely related to the colour and romance aspect, in my opinion (the flowers that is)
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Post by tomroberts on Aug 10, 2009 22:51:04 GMT
I wonder if they have giant hogweed in the spirit world. Very nasty stuff, as far as I know. Or is only pretty flowers. Who decides?
Lunacy.
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Post by morganp on Aug 10, 2009 23:02:48 GMT
I wonder if they have giant hogweed in the spirit world. Very nasty stuff, as far as I know. Or is only pretty flowers. Who decides? Probably the same people who decided the insects weren't welcome morganp
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Post by fluffet on Aug 10, 2009 23:10:55 GMT
Im guessing venus fly traps arent welcomed either Tom The "who decides" question is one that can be applied to most everything to do with the spirit world , who decides when someone has reached a level considered enlightened enough , whats the criteria , how do they measure it ? Who decides the allowed content and make up of it all and whats not ? There is little in the way of definition in their world ..."this is the way it is " seems to be the constant cry yet when questioned on the reasoning they are unable to form anything other than repetative relations of the same thing over and over ...there is no reasoning involved in this kind of belief system therefore you cannot ever expect an answer that might address a valid question with any kind of clarity other than the circle of "how do you talk to the dead ?" " Through mediumship " "what is mediumship ?" "talking the dead". The second it gets into the why and hows and whens they revert back to the text book cliched statements that offer no real insight into anything .Much like Patricia Putt did in the recent podcast explaination of what they require to do this or how its presented to them is steeped in "non" terms and "in house" jargon that means little other than the meaning they give it . I think the answer is the person themselves who is creating the belief and forming it in the image of exactly what would make them happy , what would be in their perfect world , and what they want it to be . Each one of them takes a basic set of "ground rules" and beliefs then adds and detracts exactly what they want to tailoring it to suit their needs...to what they hope it to be and want it to be .
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Post by tomroberts on Aug 10, 2009 23:15:09 GMT
Flowers are symbols in the 'spiritual' world Of what? so what might be the significance of yellow, pink or orange roses? I think you are talking utter nonsense.
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Post by morganp on Aug 10, 2009 23:22:03 GMT
There must be a lot of disappointed dead Bee Keepers on the other side. On the question of who decides I suspect that the jesus/god person may be cited at some point, given that there was one of those horrible Robert Powell type pictures of him hung on the wall which is about as close to an accurate depiction to a first century jew as a picture of Mickey Mouse would be to a mouse.
morganp
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Post by fluffet on Aug 11, 2009 0:01:58 GMT
Robert Powell must get a bit miffed with all those unsanctioned portraits and use of his image out there He should be on some kind of commission ...nevermind on t shirts, dishclothes and the odd slice of toast on ebay. Perhaps he and the bee keepers of this world could unite in their frustration at always being left out. I find it hard to understand though how spiritualists mite cite the familiar JC/Big G as the ones who decide in that much of what they often spout seems to rely on the idea that you choose your life before your born , that you choose your guides or at least have influence on the choice, that you speak directly to the dead or at least through a guide ...not much room for the JC/Big G combo to get a word in edgeways there really or at least not in the usual depiction of being all seeing , all knowing , ever present and in control of all fates and lifes. Perhaps the "you choose" in spiritualists terms infact means " he chooses for you and allows you to choose as long as its what he decides".
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Post by The Legendary Barb on Aug 11, 2009 8:25:15 GMT
I did not see the programme that is the theme of this debate. Having read all your posts what is coming across to me is how sad and unhappy the people who attend these meeting are. We all loose loved ones this is the way of things in life. To my way of thinking the sadness comes from not being able to let go of the person who has died. Forever hold their memory yes as most of us do, but live your own life for today and to the full. Life is what we make of it, to be perpetually trying to contact their deceased loved ones seems only to bring misery to them and a much healthier bank balance to those perpetrators who encourage them to do so. If there where spirits who truly wanted to be in contact with their living loved ones, would they need to go through a third person. Surely not. They should take comfort from happier memories and those family members who are still with them. This really should bring them comfort ,the joy of having family around. I know there will be those who have no family and for them the journey of life will be hard , if it brings these people peace of mind, so be it. Unfortunately there will always be somebody to play on their sadness, even though they may think they are doing good they are not. They are just making unhappy people cut themselves off from the realities of this life, by trying to prove there is an afterlife.
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Post by morganp on Aug 11, 2009 11:25:21 GMT
I think that it all boils down to the fact that many many people just simply cannot come to terms with the very real probability that death is final, full stop, end of the line with no heaven, hell or vividly coloured insect free garden on the other side. I think the Tree Surgeon bloke said something like 'If there's nothing when we die what's the point of living?' at which point my beanie jesus was thrown at the TV
morganp
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