first of all I want to apologise for any grammar or style mistakes in my post, but I’m not a native English speaker.
My eyes hurt from reading through this forum, but I got a lot of valuable information from it for which I want to say thank you. I would like to relate my story of contacts with so called spiritual mediums and my personal quandary.
More than twenty years ago, I went as an Au-pair to England. Until then, I had never believed in God or heard about mediums and the like. My friend and I stumbled across an advertisement in the news agency, though, where a medium offered readings (10 Pounds per reading). We were curious and went to see her. She (Josie) was a very plain woman in a very plain and simple house (no visible luxury). We only said hello and my friend went in first. Afterwards I got my reading. I cannot remember so much of the first session, only that it convinced me so far that I went to her two more times. All in all, three or four things she said stuck with me and could not be explained away afterwards. One was very personal, which I don’t want to relate here. The others were: The name of my then still living grandmother and a description of her (it was not an English name and Josie had difficulties pronouncing it, but got it right); a description of one of two photographs I still had/have from my other grandmother; and an indication of how my mother had died. Other things she mentioned were also spot on, but could also be regarded as (very) good guesses. What puzzles me still a bit is the description of the photograph. She described it as showing two women with bicycles in front of a forest. Both women looked happy and were laughing. This was exactly how I remembered the photograph at that time (probably because my grandmother had told me how happy she was on that excursion). Only, when I looked at it again, I saw that neither my grandmother nor her sister were laughing. In fact, they look quite serious on it.
The whole experience with Josie and everything I read afterwards about the spiritual world enriched me so much and made me so happy. When I came back to Germany and started to study, however, I developed a very critical mind and questioned everything (especially my own perception). It was awful because I lost a whole universe and an eternal and purposeful existence and got a miserable little life shaken by coincidences in return. Preferring the truth, no matter how inconvenient it is, I came to live with it, though.
Then, a couple of years ago, I lost a number of very close relatives in a very short time. The whole story with Josie came up again and I thought I would give it another try. I was completely desperate and devastated and I hated my critical mind. My sister, who is a Christian and believes in the Almighty, could deal much better with the loss (or so I thought). At least she had a consolation. So I googled the Internet if there were any mediums in Germany. I found one with a British training (this seems a kind of qualification in spiritualist circles). Her name is Doris Forster. Although I was desperate for a contact, I felt her to be a fraud from the beginning. Josie never asked anything and gave me the reading with closed eyes. D.F. only did what I learned is cold reading. And she was quite good at it as far as reading my feelings was concerned. Everything else she said was superficial or completely wrong. The session was taped and I sent the tape to my sister afterwards who confirmed that it was 100% crap.
The sad thing is, however, that there are still two hearts beating within me with two very loud voices. My critical self is scolding my I-would-like-to-believe-self very hard and tries to suppress it. But my IWLTB-self clings to every possible idea of an afterlife, because thinking that one will never see ones people again and, worse, will stop existing, is just a pain in the neck. This, critical self says, is no reason to believe. Only because we wish for it doesn’t make it true.
Since suppressing my need to enquire the possibility of a spiritual world makes me completely unhappy, I decided to take some time to do a bit more research on it and find a satisfying answer, if possible. The problem is, most websites are a pain to read and are either full of people believing the most stupid things or of people making fun of it and negating it completely. The BP-site seems to be quite harsh on believers, but I prefer the critical perspective.
I have another appointment with a spiritual medium next week. I almost regretted it after reading through the BP forum, but since it is fixed and paid I will have a go at it. I will be careful not to disclose too much information beforehand. The whole thing will be recorded, so I can give it a hard review afterwards. I also made a list of 10 questions, which nobody but my dead relatives could answer. (Writing this, I feel the absurdity of the whole thing.)
Thanks a lot for reading! Buecherwurm
hello, bookworm
If I haven't arrived here too late, why not keep your appointment and judge for yourself? I could present a positive counterpoint to those who might seek to dissuade you but I suggest you find out for yourself what's involved. Then we could discuss the outcome with you and offer our thoughts and ideas.
If I haven't arrived here too late, why not keep your appointment and judge for yourself? I could present a positive counterpoint to those who might seek to dissuade you but I suggest you find out for yourself what's involved. Then we could discuss the outcome with you and offer our thoughts and ideas.
Hi Unclemac,
I'm very interested in your positive counterpoint.
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I've had my reading today and I think it was a waste of money. None of the "hard" facts like names, numbers, dates etc. were right. Everything was completely vague even though I helped her by giving (moderate) feedback where I could. She struggled really hard to get a connection although I have many more people on "the other side" than on this. When she eventually got a connection to my mother (apparently), things got a bit better, but were still very hazy.
I don't know what to think of her. To me, she did not appear to be an outright liar and fraud (like Doris Forster). I think she believes to have medium abilities, but really only has a lot of imagination.
I'm not disappointed since I didn't expect very much. But I would have liked to be wrong.
I can post the session here in the course of the week, if you are still interested, but I will have to leave out the bit with my mother, which is too personal.
Also I have not seen anything anywhere which says NDE have been definitively absolutely proven to be the dying brain, lack of oxygen or chemicals released.
Oh yes, also drug Ketamine, can also create an NDE. Its all to do with abnormal functioning of dopamine, a chemical released in the brain. And there have been many many studies showing the causes of NDEs. Here is a quick article I found that covers it www.scientificamerican.com/article/peace-of-mind-near-death/
All I'm saying is there is much unknown about the universe and even our brains. Yesterday I read an article where scientists in mapping out the human brain discovered over 90 new areas previously unknown. Discoveries in quantum physics are being made everyday, finding yet smaller and stranger particles. There are scientists, better minds than mine (ok I'll leave u out lol) that theorize we are living in a matrix, our universe is a computer simulation, it's possible we are living in a hologram, multi verses and on and on. There are many theories out there and I don't find it so far fetched to believe we are more than our bodies.
The theories of living in a matrix etc are very much philisophical discussions, and realistically no one believes it. But it is a fascinating idea to think about.
Yes fascinating but also that is not my take when I read articles about those topics. It seems to me that many scientists, physicists, etc think some of those theories are real possibilities.
I'm sorry to learn that your sitting with this woman brought you nothing. It's a sad fact that good mediumship is rare nowadays. Jon - natürlich - tells us there is no such thing as mediumship and he's almost right - almost. I'm a Brit and don't know how the subject of psychics and mediums is viewed in Deutschland but the woman who took your money wasn't even much of a psychic based on what you've told us. Jon might be right to say you should have a refund of the charge for her services although I don't know what she indicated that you should expect anyway. I hope you won't mind hearing my perspective about your experience.
I'm not a cynic or hostile about psychic or mediumistic individuals trying to help others and I don't object to a small charge when a good service has been provided. When it hasn't there should be no charge. Even here in the UK standards of mediumship are poor and sadly your experience is probably not unusual. But I am confident that some individuals genuinely are mediums and sometimes they can provide sound evidence of a communicator's identity - Jon will disagree as he's not experienced that for himself.
Your lady may indeed be a medium and successful with others but it appears she wasn't successful in your case although you suggest she told you something about your mother. I don't think there would be any point in discussing the valueless 'stuff' she told you and I would not ask you to say anything concerning your mother. I've been a Spiritualist for over thirty years but I have little confidence in modern-day mediums. It's hard if someone is seeking reassurance about specific family members to be confident about their survival of death. I quickly realised I didn't need to keep searching for a medium to bring anyone personal to me. Persuasion for me came in a very personal way and I would not expect others to be similarly persuaded based on my experience. We each react in different ways dependent on what we experience or learn. I've learned there are no certainties.
I'm a Brit and don't know how the subject of psychics and mediums is viewed in Deutschland but the woman who took your money wasn't even much of a psychic based on what you've told us.
In Germany, as far as I can see, there is not much going on in the spiritual sector.
Jon might be right to say you should have a refund of the charge for her services although I don't know what she indicated that you should expect anyway. I hope you won't mind hearing my perspective about your experience.
I don't mind hearing your point of view at all!
I didn't ask for a refund, because it's impossible for me to tell people they did a bad job (too soft). I mean she admitted that it was very dissatisfying and that she is usually much clearer. She didn't offer a refund, though, as I would have done.
Your lady may indeed be a medium and successful with others but it appears she wasn't successful in your case although you suggest she told you something about your mother. I don't think there would be any point in discussing the valueless 'stuff' she told you and I would not ask you to say anything concerning your mother.
What she said about my mother was nothing really substantial. My mother committed suicide 30 years ago (when I was still a kid) and once she had guessed this right, she gave a long rigmarole about how she felt at that time etc. This was all very much to the point, as it maybe would have been with all the other people who killed themselves. Still, it's too personal to be spread out in public. Sorry, if this sounds contradictory.
I quickly realised I didn't need to keep searching for a medium to bring anyone personal to me. Persuasion for me came in a very personal way and I would not expect others to be similarly persuaded based on my experience. We each react in different ways dependent on what we experience or learn. I've learned there are no certainties.
This is a point, I understand very well. Sometimes I think, I have all the answers already in the back of my mind. I have a very strong subconscious and an inner knowledge, sometimes also of the future, which is hard to explain. I also have a strong feeling that my mother is still with me and I have a number of experiences which confirm this to me. Of course, this could be entirely in my imagination, as my critical mind thinks. But what I certainly did not imagine is what I felt, the moment she died, although I was at school then. It was the strongest (and worst) feeling I ever had in my life (lasting about half an hour) and I don't think science could explain it.
Jon - natürlich - tells us there is no such thing as mediumship and he's almost right - almost.
No not almost right, completely right as backed up by over 100 years of serious scientific study.
But I am confident that some individuals genuinely are mediums and sometimes they can provide sound evidence of a communicator's identity - Jon will disagree as he's not experienced that for himself.
You are confusing evidence with someone being convinced. I disagree with claims of mediumship since I am the most experienced and knowledgeable person in the UK by quite a margin when it comes to mediumship and psychic claims.
It is easy to CONVINCE someone of something, but to actually produce credible evidence, well that has NEVER EVER happened in the field of mediumship.
We each react in different ways dependent on what we experience or learn. I've learned there are no certainties.
Well except one, that being that 100% of mediums fail 100% of the time when the chance to cheat is removed in credible scientific tests. 100% failure rate, no anomolies, no exceptions, a 100% failure record from every single medium in the world and in history who has ever been tested. That to me sounds like one hell of a certainty.
Personal faith in an afterlife etc is fine with me, I have no problem with that. HOWEVER when someone tells me that a medium is really communicating with the dead, and that they are charging people for the process, and then I see that the medium is cheating, well that makes me angry, for the memories you have of your loved lost ones are some of the most precious things you will ever have, and for anyone to try to change them, manipulate you and so on, well that is a crime that is almost unforgivable.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Sam Parnia is a pseudoscientist, and his conclusions are all from talking to people, not in any way a scientific examination.
Basically he interviews people who have had heart attacks etc, and then writes down what they say.
In a BBC documentary "The Day I Died", psychologist Dr Susan Blackmore, basically ripped apart the findings and pointed out that physical explanations were much more plausible and didn't need any leaps of faith.
Keep in mind that Sam Parnia's entire career rests on this one things, he makes his living from his books about this. He has no objectivity at all, and is totally biased. His experiments really do not carry any weight in the scientific world.
Let me give you an example. When the moon is low on the horizon, lets say I interview 1 million people, and ask them all one simple question. "Is the moon bigger than usual, when it is low on the horizon"
I would say with confidence that 1 million people would say yes.
Therefore as a pseudoscientist I would declare that the moon is bigger, because my evidence of 1 million people seeing the same thing proves it so.
Would you accept my findings? Would mainstream science just accept my findings? Afterall 1 million independence people all saw the same thing.
Did you know that those 1 million people are all wrong, and real science can prove it. This is known as the moon illusion, you can google it if you are interested.
The point is that someone like Sam Parnia is not doing the right kind of experiments, if you are only looking for things that support your own incorrect opinion, then you will only find them. Real science doesn't work like that, real science blinds the scientists, so that the only thing that matters is the data, and that the data can be tested, replicated, by any other scientist anywhere in the world.
NDEs can be created by any scientist in the world, using the same science, and on almost any person.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
HOWEVER when someone tells me that a medium is really communicating with the dead, and that they are charging people for the process, and then I see that the medium is cheating, well that makes me angry, for the memories you have of your loved lost ones are some of the most precious things you will ever have, and for anyone to try to change them, manipulate you and so on, well that is a crime that is almost unforgivable.
I love this, Jon. It sums up exactly why you do what you do and why you're so passionate about exposing these people for the frauds that they are. The TV shows may now have disclaimers saying 'for entertainment purposes only' but there's nothing entertaining about messing with people's emotions!
"No passion in the world is equal to the passion to alter someone else's draft." H G Wells
Sam Parnia is a pseudoscientist, and his conclusions are all from talking to people, not in any way a scientific examination.
Basically he interviews people who have had heart attacks etc, and then writes down what they say.
In a BBC documentary "The Day I Died", psychologist Dr Susan Blackmore, basically ripped apart the findings and pointed out that physical explanations were much more plausible and didn't need any leaps of faith.
Keep in mind that Sam Parnia's entire career rests on this one things, he makes his living from his books about this. He has no objectivity at all, and is totally biased. His experiments really do not carry any weight in the scientific world.
Let me give you an example. When the moon is low on the horizon, lets say I interview 1 million people, and ask them all one simple question. "Is the moon bigger than usual, when it is low on the horizon"
I would say with confidence that 1 million people would say yes.
Therefore as a pseudoscientist I would declare that the moon is bigger, because my evidence of 1 million people seeing the same thing proves it so.
Would you accept my findings? Would mainstream science just accept my findings? Afterall 1 million independence people all saw the same thing.
Did you know that those 1 million people are all wrong, and real science can prove it. This is known as the moon illusion, you can google it if you are interested.
The point is that someone like Sam Parnia is not doing the right kind of experiments, if you are only looking for things that support your own incorrect opinion, then you will only find them. Real science doesn't work like that, real science blinds the scientists, so that the only thing that matters is the data, and that the data can be tested, replicated, by any other scientist anywhere in the world.
NDEs can be created by any scientist in the world, using the same science, and on almost any person.
well I definitely will not win an argument with you! For every article I produce, you will produce a counter one and my 'experrt' will never be as credible as yours. So I will agree to disagree even though I still maintain that it was not been ABSOLUTELY proven, just one opinion vs another's, As far as the various theories of what our universe is, again, you say no one really believes in the possibilities but I don't think that's true. Michio Kaku, a very well respected physicist and professor here in the US is just one I can think of off the top of my head. Yes these are all just theories but no one knows for sure and as long as we don't know can anything really be ruled out? This is not to say I believe phychic mediums are real, as much as I want to and wish with all my heart it was true.
well I definitely will not win an argument with you! For every article I produce, you will produce a counter one and my 'expert' will never be as credible as yours. So I will agree to disagree even though I still maintain that it was not been ABSOLUTELY proven, just one opinion vs another's,
It is never about trying to beat someone, or winning an argument. If people do not challenge me, or bring me things that counter my opinion, then how can I learn and grow as a person. Just because I have a big gob and know my stuff, doesn't necessarily mean I am right. I happened to already be aware of Parnia, as I have had a similar discussion about him with someone else, so I already knew what was what on this.
Also I would argue that the scientific results on NDEs are not opinions, but facts, since they are peer reviewed and replicated in blind studies around the world. Parnia has opinions, not science, all related to him selling books.
As far as the various theories of what our universe is, again, you say no one really believes in the possibilities but I don't think that's true. Michio Kaku, a very well respected physicist and professor here in the US is just one I can think of off the top of my head. Yes these are all just theories but no one knows for sure and as long as we don't know can anything really be ruled out?
Can I just say that I love Michio Kaku, I am aware of his work, and love seeing him in science documentaries. He is very much a futurist, and a theorist, and it is very intelligent people like him who come up with these ideas of alternate universes and he brings the possible science with him to back up the ideas. However they are just ideas, and you must be careful to not just believe something because a man like him comes up with a great idea. He no more believes in such things than I do, however he has a brain that can allow him to theorise these things and even try to explain how they could work.
So please be careful here not to confuse the different things here. On one hand you might have a psychic who will try to explain their beliefs using ideas and explanations that they have no real working knowledge of, that they dont really understand, and they just throw out there as a way to cover themselves. On the other hand you have insanely intelligent, well respected scientists like Michio Kaku, who really understands, and can use science to explain an IDEA, that has not been proven, and has no actual evidence.
So yes I would say with confidence that Michio Kaku does not blindly believe in alternative universes or any other paranormal type stuff, however he is smart enough to theorise how such things could exist, and explain the science behind such an existence.
Compare it to when scientists theorise what an alien who lives on Jupiter would look like, they will go into great detail in the science behind what their appearance would be like, how they would breath, reproduce, live, their chemical structure, DNA and so on. They theorise using science and explain how such a thing would be, but they dont actually believe that such creatures live on Jupiter, but they can explain how such a thing if it did exist might be.
And unfortunately when scientists like Michio Kaku give these kinds of detailed explainations, many believers and paranormalists, then use him as "proof" that these things are possible, because he is a well respected scientist.
I hope that makes sense I know I am rambling slightly, but trying to get a point across regarding the difference between when a scientists theorises about something and when a paranormalist does.
This is not to say I believe psychic mediums are real, as much as I want to and wish with all my heart it was true.
I wish and want them to be real too.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Jul 28, 2016 8:43:42 GMT
If a scientist went into great detail into how a plesiosaurus could be alive today and living in Loch Ness, does that mean the Loch Ness Monster is real? Does it mean the scientist believes in Nessy?
DIfference between belief in something, and explaining with science how something could be.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
I love this, Jon. It sums up exactly why you do what you do and why you're so passionate about exposing these people for the frauds that they are. The TV shows may now have disclaimers saying 'for entertainment purposes only' but there's nothing entertaining about messing with people's emotions!
Thanks
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
I love Michio Kaku too, have read many of his books. I understand what you're saying but then again I don't. Here's an example of what I mean
For the first time in human history, scientists have physical proof of gravity waves in the wild, signaling the dawn of a new subfield of astronomy with the promise of more eye-opening discoveries yet to come. These are the moments we physicists dream about and live for — when discovery becomes proof and theory becomes fact. It’s a win for the entire scientific community. It’s my privilege to share and explain these advancements with all the world.
This was stated on his Facebook page. An example of a scientific theory being proven. Your compArison of what life on Jupiter could be like and theories about how our universe works don't make sense to me. Not when there are various studies going to try and prove or disprove these 'theories.' I don't blindly believe anything that's said but I do believe they are real possibilities and I don't think it's true that no one really believes them or huge amounts of money wouldn't be invested trying to find out.
I don't want to get over my head here because I'm not a scientist but to the best of my knowledge and understanding, there is a missing link so to speak in physics. The theory of everything. Proven fact, agreed? Some of these 'theories', are science trying to find one unified theory of the universe and the possibilities that could explain why they can't....yet. Otoh does the Loch Ness monster even exist? Trying to explain or theorize what it could be when it hasn't been proven to be real.
I don't want to get over my head here because I'm not a scientist but to the best of my knowledge and understanding, there is a missing link so to speak in physics. The theory of everything. Proven fact, agreed? Some of these 'theories', are science trying to find one unified theory of the universe and the possibilities that could explain why they can't....yet. Otoh does the Loch Ness monster even exist? Trying to explain or theorize what it could be when it hasn't been proven to be real.
But this is my exact point. Psychics and mediums have never been proven to be real, an afterlife never proven to be real. We have 100% failure in ever credible test ever done on anything connected to these things. However that doesn't mean that science cant think about such things and come up with theories, as for scientists this is fun.
With gravitational Waves and so on, such things were theorized, but they were theorized using real science, so basically scientists had a pretty good idea that it was real, they just needed to find a way to prove it. Where as with psychic claims, scientists pretty much know these things are impossible. Same with an afterlife.
Scientists will say with utmost certainty and knowledge that there is no Loch Ness Monster, but the fun part is trying to think of ways that it could exist.
Things we know as 100% fact. Mediums do NOT communicate with the dead. This just does not happen, there is no evidence of it, there is not even a theory behind the claims, it is just a made up claim. Same goes with an afterlife.
Now what scientists like to do is see if they can think up ways that such things could exist, but NOT because they think it is real, or that they believe in psychics. They do it because it is interesting. Not because they want to prove mediums are real.
This really is an important point to really try to understand, I know it is hard to get, and I am struggling to articulate myself here.
Try to understand better my point about life on Jupiter. No life can exist on that planet, no life that we know of, or that biology knows of, or can explain. So this is pretty much a fact in science, no life on Jupiter.
So now a scientist comes along, and tries to think of ways it could exist, NOT because they believe it exists, but as an exercise in thinking. So they would look at life on Earth, and say, ok all life as we know it is carbon based, what is a chemical close to Carbon, lets say Silicon, so lets make this life Silicon based, they then try to imagine different ways that life could exist on the planet.
It is an exercise in thinking, it is a way scientists look at what they know, and try to imagine things that go beyond our own current knowledge.
Lets just think of any crazy thing, something ridiculous, lets say
On the moon exists an alien like creature that eats moon dust, and farts gold pellets.
This is a ridiculous thing, I just thought of it. Now give that description to a scientist, and they will try to think of a way that it could happen. They can break down the science, the chemical formulas, the conditions needed and so on. And maybe just maybe a scientist will come up with some kind of hypothesis that would make it work.
This is what scientists do when they come up with ideas about alternative realities, or us living in a Matrix, and so on.
It is just an idea someone comes up with, and then they try and figure out how it could work.
But believers confuse this, with thinking that such things are real, or even likely, they are not.
Do you follow?
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
I do follow completely. I actually saw a special about that years ago what life would/could look like on different planets with various gravity, environment etc. but the thing you're missing or point I'm making is I don't think this is what scientists are doing when they talk about the possibilities of our universe. There IS a missing link, and scientists hypothesize the cause. Yes there are various theories but it's not someone just thinking out loud hmm could we be living in a matrix. Or recently I read there is a cold spot in our universe that COULD be caused by the tug of a parallel universe. Of course there could be many other reasons but there must be SOME reason. I don't think scientists are pulling ideas out of thin air. IOW scientists are theorizing due to something (the missing component to unify the physics of our universe) not answering a question due to nothing (what would life be like on Jupiter when we pretty much know there is none) looking for a scientific explanation for something that is real and factual is different than giving an explanation of something that is not. The difference between saying if there were life on Jupiter what would it be like and saying our space probe Juno is seeing suspicious and strange activity on Jupiter. Scientists would immediately be looking for a scientific explanation. Of course there would be different theories until we find out for sure. My head is spinning now...lol Hope that makes sense! Oh and this has really nothing to do with psychics or mediums ability to speak to the dead so I'm sorry for taking it off topic.
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Jul 29, 2016 7:45:43 GMT
Scientists will always look for the "Theory of Everything" The sad thing is when you hear psychics etc try to use Quantum Mechanics as a way to explain their own lies and bulls*it.
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
I mean she admitted that it was very dissatisfying and that she is usually much clearer. She didn't offer a refund, though, as I would have done.
