Doesnt Randi actually allow the challengers to choose their own independent scientists, as well as one appointed by him in a double blind test for the challenge?? If that is the case and I am sure it is..then the challengers should put up or shut up.
Does anyone else think this is a bit of a strawman from Kendra?
We have been there before on the challenge. There is a recent thread in the sceptism part of the forum. But the point is that it seems that if anyone dismisses of challenges Randi they are dismissed as " believer" or not worthy. If Randi won't do a test that is fair enough,if a mediums says no,thats different?
Inquisitor
I didn't read any of the articles in depth as I've seen them before and they are not from credible sources.
Says who,fellow sceptics or an unbiased source??
I mean RENSE!!!
You wouldn't be attacking a person there would you?
Did anyone realise that he considers chiropractic healing and reflexology as paranormal? I have had a ,medical condition that the NHS couldnt heal ,healed by a reflexologist as have many people I know. I also know lots of people healed by chiropractors so dont understand how that can be deemed paranormal.
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Did anyone realise that he considers chiropractic healing and reflexology as paranormal? I have had a ,medical condition that the NHS couldnt heal ,healed by a reflexologist as have many people I know. I also know lots of people healed by chiropractors so dont understand how that can be deemed paranormal.
Did anyone realise that he considers chiropractic healing and reflexology as paranormal? I have had a ,medical condition that the NHS couldnt heal ,healed by a reflexologist as have many people I know. I also know lots of people healed by chiropractors so dont understand how that can be deemed paranormal.
Silly billy. Cos he says so.
Oh, thats alright then as long as I know, I wouldn't want an inconvenient truth to get in the way of true research.
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Oh, thats alright then as long as I know, I wouldn't want an inconvenient truth to get in the way of true research.
As far as I was aware, he doesnt consider it paranormal. It considers it quackery. Based along the lines of:
Claims of therapeutic success can usually be attributed to an ailment being self-limiting (i.e. it will resolve itself in time without any treatment), or to an unpredictable placebo response brought about by the patient's deep belief in the therapy and/or the practitioner's sympathetic attention. In both these cases the practitioner will normally take the credit for having elicited a cure and the patient will become a believer in the therapy. (Not Randi's quote)
Did anyone realise that he considers chiropractic healing and reflexology as paranormal?
In essence they are paranormal claims if you look at the theory behind them.
But they are generally classified as quackery and as such their practitioners are eligible to apply for the $1,000,000 challenge.
Chiropractors can help lower back pain using SMT; reflexologists offer relaxing foot massages; but if either claims to do more then they are mistaken or lying.
pillsbury0 said:
I have had a ,medical condition that the NHS couldnt heal ,healed by a reflexologist
Well, you mentioned it - so what did the reflexologist heal?
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Jan 16, 2007 19:53:49 GMT
cheyanne71 said:
It was a reasonable response to an ongoing debate, a discussion I had only come across on that day. I didn't know there were set rules about not being able to post a comment no matter if you hadn' t been a part of that discussion from the onset. Are you telling me I have no right to enter a discussion and post my point of view at a later stage?
You are welcometo join in any debate, but when it is just to post a pointless attack on someone then it is a joke.
Why didnt you post an intelligent point, something that would further the discussion?
Instead you took it as a chance to asslick kendra and attack me.
Trust me Kendra hates sicophants so dont waste your time
is that not a personal attack on me?
It was actually a question if you read it again, the fact you didnt understand it, kinda answers it for me though
that's the second time you have threatened me with being banned Jon just because you disagreed with what I said.
Is it? lol Pointless personal attacks are not wanted on here, unless you change your ways you will be gone.
Again i have no problem with people attacking me, insulting me, as long as it is part of the discussion, and not just a one post blind attack.
I seem to remember you posting not long ago that you are very thick skinned and it takes an awful lot to rile you and you welcome a good argument. I don't think my post warrants such harsh treatment but it's your perogative Jon!
I am thick skinned, which is why i get on so well with the likes of Kendra and Lowrider, what i abhore is cowardly, ignorant attacks based on pure hatred and jealousy, especially when they are used to try and gain favour with someone, in this case Kendra
your point being?
Not a point, just stating a fact due to the way you post
Why dont YOU start a thread, a debate, you be the instigator of a discussion, instead of sucking the blood off people like Kendra
I will start a thread when there is something interesting to start a discussion about, not just for the sake of it! I don't suck the blood of anybody.
To start a thread like Kendra has done takes intelligence, and a want to debate, discuss etc.
You seem only interested in insulting people.
Do i really need to go back over all of your posts since joining this forum to prove my point?
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
Oh, thats alright then as long as I know, I wouldn't want an inconvenient truth to get in the way of true research.
As far as I was aware, he doesnt consider it paranormal. It considers it quackery. Based along the lines of:
Claims of therapeutic success can usually be attributed to an ailment being self-limiting (i.e. it will resolve itself in time without any treatment), or to an unpredictable placebo response brought about by the patient's deep belief in the therapy and/or the practitioner's sympathetic attention. In both these cases the practitioner will normally take the credit for having elicited a cure and the patient will become a believer in the therapy. (Not Randi's quote)
This is a quote from randi's website
2.3. Does (this) qualify as paranormal?
The best way to answer this is to examine this list of things that people commonly apply for.
The following things are paranormal by definition:
Dowsing. ESP. Precognition. Remote Viewing. Communicating with the Dead and/or "Channeling". Violations of Newton's Laws of Motion (Perpetual Motion Devices). Homeopathy. Chiropractic Healing (beyond back/joint problems). Faith Healing. Psychic Surgery. Astrology. Therapeutic Touch (aka "TT"). Qi Gong. Psychokinesis (aka "PK"). The Existence of Ghosts. Precognition & Prophecy. Levitation. Physiognomy. Psychometry. Pyramid Power. Reflexology. Applied Kinesiology (aka "AK"). Clairvoyance. The Existence of Auras. Graphology. Numerology. Palmistry. Phrenology.
The following things have been ruled NOT paranormal and/or NOT eligible for the Challenge in the past:
UFOs. "Bigfoot" & "Yeti" (or other legendary creatures). Anything that is likely to cause injury. "Cloud-busting". Claims of a Religious or Spiritual nature. Exorcism and/or Demonic Possession. The Existence of Chakras. The Existence of God. Reincarnation. The Existence of the Soul or "Astral Bodies".
There are some claims that are far too implausible to warrant any serious examination, such as the "Breatharian" claims in which the applicant states that he can survive without food or water. Science conclusively tells us all we need to know about such matters, and the JREF feels no obligation to engage applicants in such delusions.
Many of the NOT PARANORMAL claims are listed as such solely because they cannot be properly tested for. For example, in order to prove that Exorcism is real, one must first establish the existence of demons. The JREF is unaware of a manner in which it might be proven that demons exist (or god, or angels or "elementals", for that matter), while remaining open to any suggestions that might change their opinion in this regard.
Hope that helps
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Inquisitor, you asked what did the reflexologist heal? well I wont give you all the gory details but I spent two years suffering acute back pain, the nhs went thru every option,no success, in the end they said all they could offer was pain management. I was at my wits end when a friend said go see this women,she will help. I thought what the hell is a foot massage going to do for me,but as I had nothing to lose apart from an hour of my time ,I went. Within ten minutes she informed me that the back pain was being transferred from my colon. I went back to the nhs and said what had been done and went thru a disgusting barium meal x ray which confirmed there was a problem that they couldnt fix and again was offered pain management.
As the reflexologist had at least done some good I went back to her,told her what the nhs had said and done and asked her to give it a go. Ten sessions later and I was pain free for the first time in 2 years. I have never had a problem since and my G.P now refers people to her that he cant help. Best £300 I have ever spent.
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Would you be so kind as to supply (by PM if you feel in necessary) me with the name and address of your GP and surgery so that I can contact him/her to verify that they do indeed refer patients to this reflexologist.
The reflexologist's name and practice address would help too.
Doesnt Randi actually allow the challengers to choose their own independent scientists, as well as one appointed by him in a double blind test for the challenge?? If that is the case and I am sure it is..then the challengers should put up or shut up.
Does anyone else think this is a bit of a strawman from Kendra?
R U so scared to to take this man purely on face value only?
Sorry if I'm missing something here (going back a few posts) but what exactly would the ''believers'' have us sceppies test Randi for? It is the mediums who are asserting a ''power/gift'' of some kind - he who asserts - proves. If Randi's tests are genuine then a genuine medium/psychic has yet to be found. How can they be fixed in some way - please tell me how you could falsly test a medium/psychic?
Ive tried reading this thread over and over, but I have no idea what we are supposed to be investigating Randi for.... I would gladly take your challenge Kendra, if you can give me a clue as to what I'm supposed to be looking for.
I don't mind who I investigate, Higgs, Randi, Hinn... But I need a start point! Am I looking to see if his claim of being a sceptic is false? If that were the case I would need to find out if he secretly believed in the paranormal and that could be tricky. Other than that, I'm at a loss.
But, tell me what you want Kendra, and I shall do my best to find it. I'm not a "believer" in Randi, he's just a bloke who doesn't believe in the paranormal, so fair game for an investigation as far as I'm concerned. Just as long as there is something to investigate!
If you have an idea that he's not all he appears to be, tell me what it is, and if there is proof of that, I shall find it.
Cool...at last someone who will give it a go... Basically to see Randi as a fraud,setting tests as he wants them,altering the results..etc etc
Kendra, I have have searched and searched and searched. I cant find any evidence as to Randi "setting tests as he wants them" or altering the results. There are plenty of articles with peoples personal views on the man, although I cannot find any from people who have actually been tested by him to say that they had passed but Randi fixed it to fail.
There is a nice bit where Randi is accused of being a fraud though:
Randi was duplicating the performances of Uri Geller: A professor from the State University of New York at Buffalo shouted out that Randi was a fraud. Randi said "Yes indeed, I'm a trickster, I'm a cheat, I'm a charlatan, that's what I do for a living. Everything I've done here was by trickery." The professor shouted back: "That's not what I mean. You're a fraud because you're pretending to do these things through trickery, but you're actually using psychic powers and misleading us by not admitting it."
But I'm not sure thats what you're looking for Kendra....
It seems very difficult for the tests to be "fixed" in any case. The protocols are laid out and agreed by both parties before hand, had these been altered during the test to make the applicant fail, I'm pretty sure the applicant would be shouting from the rooftops about it. Yet I cannot find any.
But I really, really cant find anything to even suggest Randi is a "something he isn't" or a "fraud". Sorry Kendra, I will keep looking, but I think its a bit of a goose chase. I think what you're hoping is that he is covering up the existence of the paranormal? I cant find anything to even vaguely suggest that. Maybe someone else can.
Do the rules state wemust all act like disciples following our messiah? If they do maybe i missed that.
Again I will post my opinion in whatever manner i see fit, if that offends someone tough, if I break the rules tough, If you dont want me on the forum then ban me, but lets stop with these petty warnings, as I think we both know they are a bunch of tosh.
I do have a low opinion of some people, but i do not know anyone on that forum well enough to have made such a judgement yet. Many people on there will have a low opinion of me i am sure, and that is their right. If someone is an idiot, then i will say so, as i would expect someone to say the same to me if thats what they think
Recognise the above words Jon! Your words, your thoughts. So why do you attack me for voicing my opinions. You seem to think your opinion should be stated AS YOU SEE FIT!
The reply you got to those words was:
If you are genuine in your quest for debate then please make your point without reference to your clearly low opinion of your fellow members. If you want your view to be taken seriously and discussed, then please offer it respectfully and without insult.
You obviously disagreed with the above so please can you tell me why my thoughts and opinion should be so vehemently attacked by you. Or do you change your mind like you change your socks!
Again i have no problem with people attacking me, insulting me, as long as it is part of the discussion, and not just a one post blind attack.
Something you seem quite capable of elsewhere
You seem only interested in insulting people.
You have been accused of the same Jon - and you have denied it as do I.
Do i really need to go back over all of your posts since joining this forum to prove my point?
Yes
Attack me if you like Jon, but please don't be hypocritcal when you accuse me of attacking you when clearly you are quite capable and intent on doing the same thing yourself. Let's be fair AND honest here!
I find your comments about me sucking up to Kendra quite disatasteful. Seems I am not allowed either to agree with another poster without this accusation being hurled at me. If you look through this forum I think you will find certain posts where your followers have done exactly the same thing you accuse me of when replying to one of yours. Take the blinkers off!
