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Post by luckydiane on Apr 24, 2008 7:03:24 GMT
The more holidays the better in my view. Diane, your story is so typical of many people's experiences. It has become almost immoral to fly or put up a Saint George's flag in England in case someone is been offended. So irritates me. You go to France or Italy you see the tricolore flying every there with pride. Here in Australia the Aussie flag hangs with pride everywhere and many people have a pic of it on their phone or computer. But in London and other parts of England it is rare to see a Saint George flag flying let alone a union flag. People seem to think by flying or showing a flag you are in some way an arch nationalist or even racist as it has connections with certain extreme nationalist groups. My view is let's reclaim the flag as our own and be proud to fly it because by not doing so for the reasons above all we do is let the extremists win. So fly your flag with pride and enjoy being English. It's not really a sin you know I agree with your sentiments completely. I think the problem in this country is that its more the so-called "PC Do Gooder" faction that is crippling this nation's pride in itself. I don't know who these do gooders are but they're in the minority and yet have so much apparent influence. They worry about offending other cultures but without actually asking them first what they think about St George's Day, of the Flag, or the Last Night At The Proms etc. I think if they did actually speak to Asians, Muslims, Hindus, Chinese etc they would get a rather surprising response that all their nannying arrogance is not wanted. as my friend Mashish explained yesterday - she is Muslim, and she has a very hard time sometimes, not by the public in general but because people in positions of authority (her work boss, her doctor, her community liason team leader(!) etc) keep fussing over, telling her what she can do in case she sees someone wearing/waving a union flag, singing "Rule Britannia" or "Land of Hope and Glory" etc. Because the PC Crowd see these as racist colonial empire-building relics of the extreme right; while Mashish sees it as just having a bit of fun & a nice singalong! Most of her Muslim friends are not at all bothered about flags, songs and anthems. They just want to bond with all cultures with tolerance & hard work. Its these non-elected, unaccountable do-gooders that are driving cultures apart rather than anything the extreme right could ever hope to achieve IMHO (and Mashish's too) rant over
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Post by hellyp on Apr 24, 2008 9:05:19 GMT
I really don't get this saints day business, or even the idea of pride in a specific country. You're born somewhere by luck. I love England - the people, the places, the culture - but I just don't get the whole idea of national pride. I'm grateful to the people who fought in wars so that I could live in a democracy, but beyond that I don't see the mere fact that I live here and not somwhere else as an achievement. Americans are fond of saying 'We saved your ass in WWII, buddy!' but the truth is, the person speaking didn't do anything whatsoever. Their grandparents did. It annoys me when people take pride in, and ownership of, something that they personally had nothing to do with.
And as for those PC gherkins, their problem is that they don't bother to ask minorities what is acceptable to them - they just assume that something will be offensive, when in most cases it wouldn't be. They're the ones who are responsible for much of the racial tension in this country. So you end up with minority groups being blamed for people not be able to do things such as putting up a St George's flag, when in reality most of the time they haven't even complained.
Dear me, I should've taken this to the rant thread.
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Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Apr 24, 2008 9:25:41 GMT
Do i need to point out that St George is also the patron saint of a lot of other countries too? He was Greek too Countries he was patron saint of as well as England, Aragon, Catalonia, Ethiopia, Georgia, Greece, Palestine, Portugal, and Russia, and the cities of Amersfoort, Beirut, Ferrara, Freiburg, Genoa, Ljubljana, and Moscow. So yes be proud of your patron saint, who was about as English as a Kilt! lol
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Post by hellyp on Apr 24, 2008 9:35:41 GMT
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bettyc
Egg
delicious betty rockefeller
Posts: 141
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Post by bettyc on Apr 24, 2008 11:18:18 GMT
I accept that St George is not English - I celebrate St Geoge's Day simply because it is a chance to stand up and say I am proud to be English - BECAUSE I love the people, the countryside, the language and the culture (even the mixes of culture). I would be over the moon if they gave us an 'England' day which wasn't connected with the Greek (if he ever actually existed) but at the moment we don't have one.
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Post by kensington on Apr 24, 2008 12:47:06 GMT
Yep Bettyc totally agree. It's not really anything to do with St George at all. It is about England having a national day where people can celebrate being English and have a holiday as the Irish have on St Patrick's Day. Call it England Day if you like as just as we do Australia Day.
Yep St George was Greek and we share our national day with other countries and for me that is exactly what part of England is. In other words a country made up of different nationalities and cultures that are often shared. So yes St George is very much representative of that so for me it is appropriate and something to be celebrated. Let us not forget St Patrick himself was Welsh and not Irish.
So for me I agree I did not choose to be English but I also accept that I can still be proud of many English aspects of life and culture as well as history as I now am when in Australia. Most other countries celebrate a national day and have it as a holiday. England needs one soon.
I too hate extreme nationalism and despise the way the english and union flags have been hijacked and stolen by extreme nationalist groups. Let's reclaim them. I don't think England or the English are better or worse or superior in any way to other nationalities but we can still celebrate all things English and have a national holiday every year for it. When I have been in France in July I have celebtrated Bastille Day and Australia Day when in Sydney in January and yes I am also proud and happy to celebrate all things French and Aussie on those days.
Even forget St George if you want but let us have an England Day. Let's enjoy being English and the positive things that England has to offer and yes it still has some good things. Hey I love toad in the hole and spotted dick and sitting on Bournemouth beach in a deck chair in mid winter during a gale with a handkerchief on my head. All these things I want to celebrate. Other nationalities have their day now we should be given us back ours. Just a thought ;D
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Post by kensington on Apr 24, 2008 12:50:41 GMT
Ps: yep Hellyp, I totally agree with you. Most of the probs are brought up by what seem to be the PC brigade who think they know what is best for everyone when they don't. They allow their own smug self-righteous morality decide what others are thinking when they really have no idea. I have yet to meet anyone from an ethnic minority who is the one doing the complaining
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Post by john on Apr 24, 2008 15:48:43 GMT
I fly my flag whenever I feel like it. But I think the St. George idea and being British/English is all down to confusion. Take football. Berwick Rangers is an English team playing in the Scottish League. Cardiff is a Welsh team playing in the English league. If Cardiff win the cup they will play in Europe as English representatives. They could play another Welsh team who would be representing Wales. If Swansea, another Welsh team playing in the English league were also to qualify, you could have two Welsh teams representing England playing a two legged fixture without setting foot in the country they represent. And there is more on the Scots. They will not join a UK team for the Olympics in case it takes away their identity. (Cynics say it's because none of their players are good enough and they cannot face the shame). Then there is Cricket. English cricket. It's actually the England and Wales cricket team! Then there booze. Another thing close to my heart. If you import grapes and make wine it's called British. If you grow grapes here (Scotland is too far north) it's English if you want to send it elsewhere in the EU. Even if it was made in Wales. But if you call it Welsh wine it can only be sold in the UK. Whisky. A couple of years ago I bought a bottle of Welsh "Scotch" in England. SWN Y MOR whatever that means. Does it say made in Wales? Actually it says "Product of Wales UK". As opposed to the other Wales? Then Great Britain. Or should that be Great Britain and Northern Ireland? And I know there is a difference between GB and UK but I can never remember which is which. Are you confused? Me too, and I live here.
Is the pirate flag I fly a real one? NO. It's a pirate copy!
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Post by kensington on Apr 24, 2008 16:14:24 GMT
Great post. Even more reason why there should be an English Day and no doubt a Wales and Scotland Day. The Saint Days could be used as a hook to celebrate the different days in the form of a Bank Holiday as is Australia Day or Canada Day. The fact there is so much confusion within the nations that make up Britain just confirms to me and emphasises the fact there needs to be a national day and with it a national holiday to celebrate what makes it great to be English, Welsh and Scottish. Perhaps by celebrating each UK nation with its national day it'll help educate people and make them think what it means to say be English as well as give them a chance to think about their own heritage and country. There was a documentary about the English a few year's back saying that the English were unsure of their identity as to almost be seen to celebrate being English is often now seen as a form of extremism or nationalism. In fact most English people have no idea when St George's Day is let alone even probably know it exists. I think that says a lot about some of us English and perhaps our lack of identity or knowing who we are. Here in Australia we celebrate Australia Day each year at the end of January and it is a fantastic and very enjoyable day. Yes there is flag waving and yes loads of partying but it gives Aussies a chance to show their pride and celebrate being Australian and being in Australia without any of the extremist nationalism many fear about waving the Saing George flag in England. So let's have an England Day and let's think about what it means to be English and celebrate all things English. Above all it would be a great excuse to party but perhaps having a national day would help us think more about our national identity and avoid much of the confusion.
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Post by luckydiane on Apr 25, 2008 6:45:11 GMT
I tried to have an animated St George's flag as a screensaver on my laptop at work, but was told by my boss to get rid of it because (and then nodded towards my Asian friend behind me!). And then walked off in a huff. So I took it down, but then spoke to Mashish (my Asian friend) about it and she laughed her socks off, and then showed me her mobile phone which had a St George's wallpaper on it! I'm currently at work and have just opened my work emails, and there's one from my boss saying that I am to see HR this morning to be "brought up to speed" regarding the showing of "inflammatory and/or offensive material in the workplace" I just don't know what to say! Clearly my boss has taken umbridge and has complained to HR (even though I'm probably guessing that no one else in my office actually has). So I'm going to get what amounts to be a "bollocking", and all because I had the St George's flag as a screensaver for all of 5 minutes because it was officially St George's Day as decreed by Parliament! I'll let you know how I get on after my dressing-down at 9:30
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Post by steje73 on Apr 25, 2008 7:17:51 GMT
Your boss sounds lovely Diane.
I'm not all that 'proud' of being English per se, any more than I'm 'proud' of having knees. And I dislike 'Last night of the Proms' too. Not cos I think it's racist or anything, I just always picture it being full of smug student types, young toffs, and people like Diane C's boss, all of which types I avoid if at all possible.
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Post by maria on Apr 25, 2008 7:43:23 GMT
I'm currently at work and have just opened my work emails, and there's one from my boss saying that I am to see HR this morning to be "brought up to speed" regarding the showing of "inflammatory and/or offensive material in the workplace" I just don't know what to say! Clearly my boss has taken umbridge and has complained to HR (even though I'm probably guessing that no one else in my office actually has). So I'm going to get what amounts to be a "bollocking", and all because I had the St George's flag as a screensaver for all of 5 minutes because it was officially St George's Day as decreed by Parliament! I'll let you know how I get on after my dressing-down at 9:30 oh no hun, hope it goes okay
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Post by kensington on Apr 25, 2008 7:51:21 GMT
Diane, that is disgusting and ridiculous. Your boss should get a life and get over her own insecurities. Clearly she has her own issues regarding England and being English what ever her nationality. Either that or she is bowing to political correctness and thinking she knows what is best for others. What has life come to when you get into trouble because you have a screen saver on your computer with your own country's flag. You go to the USA, Australia and France you see flags every where. People are not offended and nobody would blink an eye lid if you had your flag as your screen saver. It is very common. I am sorry but frankly England is the only country I know where it has become almost taboo to fly your flag or take any pride in your own nation or what it may mean to be that nationality. Yes the flag maybe identitified with the imperialism of the British empire and may have been adopted by extremist groups and football hooligans but by hiding our flag away we have lost to them and to history. We have given in. We should reclaim the flag. Let's rejoice in being English and let's have an England Day. How many other countries do not celebrate their national day or even have a public holiday? If you don't want to celebrate England Day then don't but at least give others the choice. You'll still get a day off. Frankly your boss is behaving like a pratt and all I can say is give me their number and I'll tell them what I think of their policy. Your boss should get their priorities right. Good luck and frankly it is not you that needs the bollocking. Oh I am all worked up now. I'll give myself a nose bleed. Better sit down
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Post by starx on Apr 25, 2008 7:59:29 GMT
Do you have a trade union Diane?
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bettyc
Egg
delicious betty rockefeller
Posts: 141
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Post by bettyc on Apr 25, 2008 9:45:17 GMT
Thinking of you Diane - hope you OK.
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Post by hellyp on Apr 25, 2008 9:49:59 GMT
Dear me Diane, what a load of bollocking b***cks. I suppose the best we can hope for is that these types will all eventually find themselves arguing for the rights of the crocodile who attacks them whle on holiday in Egypt to eat them, on cultural grounds.
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Post by luckydiane on Apr 25, 2008 11:38:11 GMT
I've been given a verbal warning, and my "offense" has been recorded by HR. I was reminded of my responsibilities & acceptable behaviour required in the company's T&Cs
I am also to attend a "Equality, Racial Community Awareness & Ethics" workshop too.
I was also told that if I did this again and some one objects I will be given a written warning.
I had no right of reply or appeal (there is no union here, and ironicially enough I work as a PA for a small law firm here in Birmingham. only started the job about 2 months ago too).
My boss was at the meeting basically showing me up to be some kind of racist bigot, and anything I tried to say in my defense (such as suggesting to HR they speak to my Asian Friend Mashish for her view) was swept aside as "being irrelevent"
I was made to look this small (" ") in front of HR, it was like being questioned by the police ffs.
And then after the meeting was over and I returned to my desk the HR Director fired a global email to all company staff reminding them of their duties, and then mentioned my name and what I had done!
I was so upset I left the office and cried in the ladies. I really don't know what the hell I've done that was THAT bad. And the maddening thing is that in the meeting they never named one staff member who actually made a complaint!
All I want to do now is go home and never come back to this fucking firm (pardon my language). I have spent 2 years in Toronto, Canada, which I loved but was homesick for England. So I returned in Jan of this year, and now I face this kind of fascist crap.
Well I will have a long think over the weekend: if this is the way England is going then they can shove it: give me Canada anytime!
Sorry, rant over
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Post by starx on Apr 25, 2008 11:43:26 GMT
I would have thought this would have been classed as bullying, the way they treated you by sending an email around.
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Post by bobdezon on Apr 25, 2008 11:49:52 GMT
Might I suggest you get yourself a legal representative and begin proceedings against your company? If I were you I would document everything you can including these emails while you still can.
Personally I would have just danced on her face. (if I was a woman that is)
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Post by hellyp on Apr 25, 2008 11:53:57 GMT
What a pile of cocks!
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