EMF Meters

[sossijj]

Hello all.

I've been visiting the website for a while but haven't posted before.

Last week, I accidently attended a 'family ghostwatch' held in a fairly large museum here in Leicester. I say accidentally as I thought it was going to be a family ghostwalk - you know this thing, wandering around with a guide telling a few ghostly stories etc. It turned out to be Leicester City Council's attempt at reproducing 'Most Haunted' but for families.

In actuality, it was three hours of woo spouted by someone called Lee Gilbert, the worst 'medium'/'psychic investigator' I have ever encountered (not that I have encountered many).

Before we embarked on our ghostwatch, he showed us an EMF meter. He explained to us what he thought it should do and when it should show activity so when it started beeping in a room with no obvious electrical devices he said it must be because there was a ghost/spirit present. I was desperate to call him on his bulls*it but I didn't know enough about EMF meters to be able to confidently argue an alternative explanation.

Does anyone know enough about EMF meters to know what could be causing the meter to show activity in places where he claimed it shouldn't? As we were in a large museum, I suspect that the walls, floor and ceiling were full of electrical wires etc and that could be it but it was the way that the activity didn't remain in one place that meant I held back on this occasion.

(Un)Luckily, my niece has already booked us to go on another family ghostwatch at Leicester's Guildhall and I would love to be able to attend and ask some innocent yet awkward questions.

If anyone is interested, I'll write an article on the 'ghostwatch' and post it on here. If nothing else, it would be another Bad Psychic to add to the list.

[Mr. Jon Donnis]

I've been visiting the website for a while but haven't posted before.

Welcome to the forum

Last week, I accidently attended a 'family ghostwatch' held in a fairly large museum here in Leicester. I say accidentally as I thought it was going to be a family ghostwalk - you know this thing, wandering around with a guide telling a few ghostly stories etc. It turned out to be Leicester City Council's attempt at reproducing 'Most Haunted' but for families.

Oh the joy

In actuality, it was three hours of woo spouted by someone called Lee Gilbert, the worst 'medium'/'psychic investigator' I have ever encountered (not that I have encountered many).

I assume it is this group
www.aaincteam.com
And yes Lee has worked with Phil Whyman! lol

Before we embarked on our ghostwatch, he showed us an EMF meter. He explained to us what he thought it should do and when it should show activity so when it started beeping in a room with no obvious electrical devices he said it must be because there was a ghost/spirit present. I was desperate to call him on his bulls*it but I didn't know enough about EMF meters to be able to confidently argue an alternative explanation.

You should have just said bulls*it and be done with it.
The fact EMF can come from cables in walls, light switches and so on means that an empty room can have plenty of EMF, what this has to do with detecting ghosts though I have no idea.

Does anyone know enough about EMF meters to know what could be causing the meter to show activity in places where he claimed it shouldn't?

Yes see above

As we were in a large museum, I suspect that the walls, floor and ceiling were full of electrical wires etc and that could be it but it was the way that the activity didn't remain in one place that meant I held back on this occasion.

The very fact that you are in such a location deems the use of the EMF meter pointless for anything other than detecting EMFs, so again what doe sthis have to do with ghosties?

(Un)Luckily, my niece has already booked us to go on another family ghostwatch at Leicester's Guildhall and I would love to be able to attend and ask some innocent yet awkward questions.

You could ask why they use an EMF meter when it has never been proven to detect ghosts.

Ask them the following:
1.Why do you use an EMF meter, why dont you use a banana as it is about as useful as an EMF meter is for detecting ghosts.

2.Do you think using scientific sounding equipment makes you a scientist?

3.Do you realise you are an idiot or do you just play the idiot to make money?

If anyone is interested, I'll write an article on the 'ghostwatch' and post it on here. If nothing else, it would be another Bad Psychic to add to the list.

I am interested yes.

I am sure Bob will come and give you some more sensible questions to ask than mine.

[trystan]

Just to second Jon ... EMF meters are worthless. Some very specific EMFs may cause certain sensations/hallucinations in certain people (less than 30%) in certain circumstances. But these are not detectable by your typical off the shelf model.

[Mr. Jon Donnis]

Yes if you bombard the brain with certain types of EMF then yes you can create certain effects that would equal descriptions of the paranormal. But that is in a lab condition.

However again i see no connection between using EMF meters and detecting ghosts

[bobdezon]

Directly directed and phased EMF can produce hallucinogenic sensations, Persinger's God helmet has produced results like this before. Jason braithwaite has recorded small perceptual changes from EMF (EIF) in Muncaster castle? EMF does have a result on the brain, however in a lab it has to be specifically induced on the lobes with electrode contacts. In the natural state it is seemingly very very rare, and quite a small effect which can only be detected with banks of very precisely calibrated equipment. Your "off the shelf" EMF meter will not even approach detecting these fields. EMF meters no mater how sensitive, will not and cannot detect ghosts. Persingers effect, and Jasons observations were not paranormal, but simply the effect of EMF radiation on the brain. TAP's quite like the silly "fear cage" theory, but as Jason discovered the effect is miniscule and very very rare.

[asdfg]

There's some background info on Dr. Braithwaite's research at Muncaster Castle in the latest UK-Skeptics newsletter: www.ukskeptics.com/newsletters/2009-2.pdf

And some interesting info here (including a further link to the use of EMF meters): assap.org/newsite/htmlfiles/MADS.html

Note particularly the difference between scientific research and 'ghost hunting' as done by many amateurs.

[Deleted]

When WPR (my lowly team) started out we were bombarded with misinformation about EMF, EVP etc. - it can be really hard to realise that what you are doing is incorrect.
Then, when you do find out the facts, it can be hard to break away from those methods because they are confirming your beliefs and it's so easy to go on pretending.
It's a viscious circle I think.

[Mr. Jon Donnis]

I would still like to see a group wave bananas around instead of EMF meters and then publish their results

[trystan]

Problem is that bananas don't make clicking noises or have gauges on them. I wonder whether a set of kitchen scales may be a good alternative???

[Mr. Jon Donnis]

They could stick a casio watch on the side of the banana?

[Deleted]

The next time that we are conducting a case study I will wave a banana around the room and claim it is interesting, if that makes you feel any better?

Actually, I remember once visiting a location around midday to conduct a study of one of the rooms there and we stopped to have lunch and my team mate had a banana in their lunch box and one of the volunteers at the location asked what it was for and we told them "Calcium is known to draw out spiritual energy" and they went "oh, right."

Blindly accepted it? Thought we were daft? Hmm...

Also reminds me of the time that we were asked "How do you look for ghosts?" and a team mate said "On horseback" with a completely straight face.

...we probably shouldn't be allowed near the public with that sort of misinformation

[onewingedangel]

Any magnetic field can set off an EMF meter, mobile phones just being on can do this. If there is a mast of some sort that gives off energy within a good hundred mtrs or so can do this, under laying cables, cables inside walls, sockets, electrical equiptment.

EMF meters are not made to detect ghosts. If an 'energy' was to be about (pretend at this part that you believe), ask the same questions over and over and see if it can give you the same reply, do the questions in hte same sequence, then mix it about. Leave the area and go back later to see if it happens again.

But it is just silly to walk into a room and go 'oh the EMF is going'........there are no visual electrics in sight, ithas to be paranormal.

Does any of this make sense??

[asdfg]

Sept 6, 2009 13:38:09 GMT onewingedangel said:

But it is just silly to walk into a room and go 'oh the EMF is going'........there are no visual electrics in sight, ithas to be paranormal.

Does any of this make sense??

Yes, to think that way is to make the reasoning error known as 'affirming the consequent'.

Reasoning that works logically in a forwards direction, doesn't (necessarily) work in reverse.

Example:

If it is 2AM, it will be dark outside.
It is 2AM; therefore
It is dark outside.

That works fine but if you reverse the direction thus:

If it is 2AM, it will be dark outside.
It is dark outside; therefore
It is 2AM.

the logic clearly breaks down.

Similarly:

Ghosts emit EMFs. (Note: an unfounded assumption!)
A ghost is present; therefore
I will get a reading on my EMF meter.

and reversed:

Ghosts emit EMFs.
I have got a reading on my EMF meter; therefore
A ghost is present.

The 'ghost' example is more seductive in that the error of reasoning isn't quite so obvious; but it's exactly the same error of reasoning as the example with the time and darkness.

[nicholas]

I'm reminded of the Haunted Homes episode where there are two, so-called researchers (from Ghosts-UK, I think?) pointing their EMF meters at a light fitting and excitedly reporting that they were getting readings!!!

On the subject of the general - non-ghostie - usage of EMF meters, I recently heard someone say that they had been using such a bog standard, bleepy box model in an open space and it displayed a reading every time a vehicle had gone past on a road some 30 or 40 yards distant???

Any thoughts? ;D;D;D

Regards,

Nick

[Deleted]

I remember having an EMF meter in my coat pocket (back when I was woo) and getting in the car to go home and, when the engine was turned on, the EMF meter went wild and I almost died of fright.

[ogre]

Oh I think EMFs are enormous fun, vigils would be far too tedious without them to break up the monotony. ;D

[fluffet]

Nice to see you posting Ogre

I was wondering if anyone had come across this rather grandiose device that sells itself as an all singing all dancing tool "designed for the purpose of detecting and/or monitoring ghost and paranormal activity."
In itself that statement seems a tad presumptious , it detects the things below none of which are ghosts or paranormal ...and like most of these gadgets it seems just a little misguided to deem the detection of any of these things as somehow indicative of evidence that their presence is paranormal related.
At the price of a cool $564.20 id want it to cook me dinner and have it waiting for me on the table however that is about the only feature it DOESNT claim to offer.

www.ghostwatchdog.com/detection-methods-and-sensors.html

It claims to offer the following 8 detection systems .

Ifrared,EMF,Electrostatic field , visible light , radio frequency emissions, ambient temperature , and geomagnetic field.

However its the eight one that id never heard off , can anyone shine a light on this !

The Ghost Watchdog system also introduces a new test in the field of paranormal investigation:
Gravity Wave RadiationGravity Wave Radiation detection is a brand new and fascinating aspect in the field of paranormal research and ghost hunting. Somewhere between astrophysics and the impossible the GWR detector sits in a barrier that is electrostatically and radio magnetically isolated from the outside world.

When properly tuned this completely radio silent circuit rings in response to bursts of energy that some would say are coming from deep space. Similar instruments have reportedly been used for over 30 years to search for evidence of the "Big Bang".

No one can really prove what or where the energy bursts come from but preliminary field testing has resulted as a high probability of a connection to paranormal activity.

A connection so strong as to qualify it as a possible front runner in paranormal research in the future and Ghost Watchdog is the only device on the market that has it!

Holy creepin radioshack ! Tis a wonder machine ....well only in the sense that i wonder why anyone would part with the cash for such a device with the expectation that somehow it will provide evidence of paranormal activity.

[bobdezon]

Erm.....Gravity Wave Radiation (GWR) is fluctuating curvatures in space-time. It is also theoretical physics which has not been directly observed (although it has been indirectly observed). It is the gravitational waves theorised to bend space surrounding neutron stars, black holes, binary stars and white dwarfs. How this is supposedly going to detect ghosts I really couldn't say. It makes no logical sense at all.

I do not know what type of device they are selling here, but from the description supplied, it would appear to be some very old technology called a Weber bar.

prola.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v20/i23/p1307_1

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber_bar

The device and the theory (behind the device) were discredited a long time ago. Here is Joseph Weber with his device, which is now apparently in the Smithsonian.

[fluffet]

Yaaa ha ! So thats what GWR is ! Thanks for explaining Bob.

Quite what they think it has to do with detecting ghosts on an investimigation is still a mystery to me however.

And judging by the size of the "Ghostwatchdog" which is roughly equivalent to a desk top radio they have fair minified ole Webers design ;D

Couldnt resist posting the vid ....if nothing else the bubble wrap and pointer will give you a giggle .

[bobdezon]

Well Webers original design was built using 1960s technology. Since the electronics revolution in the 1970s things have become much smaller. I assume that this GWR sensor is not digital not analogue. It is interesting to note the advertising weasle wording though.

When properly tuned this completely radio silent circuit rings in response to bursts of energy that some would say are coming from deep space. Similar instruments have reportedly been used for over 30 years to search for evidence of the "Big Bang".

The some that would say are physicists, and qualified enough to make that statement.

No one can really prove what or where the energy bursts come from

Except perhaps physicists?

but preliminary field testing

By chimps?

has resulted as a high probability

Love to see that statistical data.

of a connection to paranormal activity.


lol?