We had only just moved to the town had not read any history on the place in fact our discussion on our walk was about how pretty the place was but there didnt seem much to do.It was 7pm we were all young and healthy(15,20 and 24),there was no element of tiredness but its a fair point to discuss as we all know alot of so called hauntings can be considerd to be from this. Yes it is only anecdotal as there is no film evidence,scientific proof and I accept that.
The mark of a reasonable man. You would be suprised how many people would be insulted because everyone else did not take their statement as "gospel".
As for they fell from another wall or it was a man, we will never know as there are no documents to prove or disprove. However as much as I try to put all logical arguements to the event i still cannot come to terms with what we all saw that night and it will always be something I will question until my dying day.
And question you should. Assuming you already know the correct answer would be ignorant and careless. I can guarantee you that upon finding the real answer, you will value the information more than if you were given it.
Another great discussion, its nice to have a discussion on here like this, a few years ago,certain people would have jumped on this and turned it into world war 3 and I know the only way we will ever get to the bottom of these paranormal topics is by such discussion and sensible scientific analysis of fact not fiction and hearsay.Cheers Bob
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Pills , I was just wondering when you all saw the figure fall was there something in the way the would have prevented you seeing it hit the ground (trees , part of the building etc) ? Im guessing there was something in the way as you mentioned you all ran towards the scene to try and find the jumper only to find nothing in the area you would have expected them to be lying. Or did you all see it actually land but by the time you got to the area it had gone ? Im just trying to build a better picture in my own head of what you witnessed.
No probs Fluffet, happy to answer, we were walking straight towards the castle up a gentle inclined road approx 300 to 400 yards from the castle wall, looking up. As is usual in castle design,they built it on a promontory overlooking the town so as you get to within 50 yards from the walls there is a high bank, on this bank was a single track tarmac residential road ,going right to left, at the end of the row of houses there is an overgrown area with medium and large trees and brambles which meant that probably the bottom third of the castle wall was covered. Below is a map link which shows the lay out,
Hi Pillsbury, thanks for posting a very interesting experience and as always it makes for enlightening reading to see how members interpret it, particularly Bob who always offers the voice of logic and reason. You say this happened in 1986 - 24 years ago - and obviously you were considerably younger then and much time has passed between the event and your current recollection of it. I had a similar seemingly ghostly encounter in 1982 which I also shared with a couple of other people - basically we saw (or think we saw) a ghost in an allegedly haunted house. At the time we were convinced that we had seen a ghost - we even had it on audio tape ie: the moment I saw 'it' I gasped and can clearly heard to be shocked at having seen 'the ghost'.
We were way ahead of our time and took cameras and tape recorders on our very amateur investimagations
My point is that over the years I've realised that memory is not perfect. I cannot now accurately recall the precise details of that sighting - sure, I can get corroboration from the others who were with me but their recall after 27 odd years is as imperfect as mine.
We all (who saw it) essentially agree on what we saw but I for one cannot say with certainty that it was a ghost - it may have been lights from an external source, car headlights, torches of other members of our group or just over active collective imaginations. We were young and very much believed that the location we were in was genuinely haunted so were very much primed and hyped to expect the unexpected. Could your recollection of the leaping lady have become diluted and colored by the intervening years and can you say for sure that what you saw as you recall it now was exactly what you really saw all those years ago? My own similar experience has a reality in that it really did happen - I accept in retrospect that I may have been mistaken in what I saw at the time and the experience as I try to recall it now is probably diluted and influenced by the intervening years of growth, learning and older wiser perspectives that I bring to it.
Thanks Pills , Google satellite gives me a good idea of where you were and I can see how as you said you wouldnt be able to see an impact or follow the falling figures descent all the way.
The other thing I was wondering about was the figure itself , obviously from say 400 yards you might not be able to pick out detail of what they were wearing or feature etc but you would probs be able to detect limbs or the movement of the figure when falling , was it like (pardon the pun) a dead weight dropping Ie like a topple over the edge or could you see arms or legs move as it went in a way that looked less likely to be an inanimate object of somesort ?
Not that im saying it was a sack of tatters lobbed off the wall , im just trying to get an idea of if there was a definate figure image that moved in a way that might have indicated independant control of limbs and the like rather than something that was less animated ?
I think the interesting if frustrating factor about things like this is there are so many flukey tricks of the light, mind enviroment that can be sometimes responsible for sightings that often having seen some amazing bits or paredolia etc I could without being specific put the cause down to one of millions of variations of them but when you havent seen it for yourself and you simply dont know the actual details of what did cause it it always feels so inconclusive and open ended to never be able to give the definative answer. And sometimes i guess thats what were left with ...a pared down list of possibilities that are most likely.
I know what you mean about accepting it as anecdotal yet still having no definative answer that explains the thing leaves it unfinished and not easy to just dismiss as one of all of the causes put forward , its not that the having questions unanswered or asking the questions means a sway more towards a paranormal cause its for me anyway simply the not knowing what did cause it and wanting to solve the puzzle of what I did actually see.
Its understand its anecdotal but I also understand what it is to experience something yourself that you cant fully or definatively explain and although of course you can accept the possibility that answers offered could be the reason theres still no definative one that fits and that can suck royally
You might never get to the answer in this case Pills , and i reckon the hardest part for me anyway when ive looked at something I experienced is trying to strip it down as impartially as i can myself then throwing it out there much like you have for as many different perspectives as I can. Its often resulted in me picking up on things at the time id never thought on or realised and I applaud you for doing so here in the way that you have ...plus it makes for a great discussion.
Post by isthisnametaken on Feb 18, 2010 4:31:59 GMT
One thing I want to focus on for now is how we explain more than person seeing the same thing. This is not just intended only for the content of this thread but also as a wider query. I have read about mass hallucinations and other such phenomena. But for me the generality of such ideas and how they work leaves me deeply skeptical about applying one or more than one of them to all situations. The validity of assuming that they explain everything is surely as unreliable as assuming one has seen a ghost. There are just too many variables involved. Good discussion.
I do not believe that mass hallucinations can explain everything, and in all fairness I have seen it used by lazy sceptics, to explain what they could not be bothered researching themselves. However it is a real phenomena, and socially contagious (in some cases). It will not explain every occurance, but it can explain some quite well.
Thanks for the input Fluffet, I am desperately trying to give you an answer on what I saw without the layers of time embellishing it,which is the nature of the human brain. As I recall it was clearly a female due to her wearing a dress and had long hair , I think her hair was brown but not sure. As for how she jumped, I think the best way to describe what she did was like someone stepping off rather than jumping off the wall. Again I am trying to be sure of what I'm saying and I think she seemed to just fall I dont recall any fancy cartwheels or hitting the walls and then she just vanished in the foliage. This was not a hollywood stunt type fall. I hope that helps and I also like Bob's latest comment about mass hallucination,I think some skeptics are as guilty of jumping to the wrong conclusion as believers are.
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One thing I want to focus on for now is how we explain more than person seeing the same thing.
On reading this thread I have to say this was my thought too. I'm no expert in these kinds of things so I'm always willing to learn. Could it be Pills that over the years your memory became your Sisters' if you know what I mean? Also I read Bob's post about the name being fictional but did a suicide by jumping occur there? Sorry if this has been covered, I have read the thread (Ooh such poetry!) but I do tend to skim very bad habit of mine!
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens
Amaris,its a fair point and I actually discussed this with my sister two days ago and we both agreed that we saw what I described earlier in the thread, sadly my other sister died 4 years ago so I cant ask her what she remembers. We all saw the woman at the same time,so its hard to say whether her story is mine or vice versa but we all said what we saw at the time and it tallied then as it does now. As for did a suicide happen? nobody knows for sure as there arent any records either way and all I know is that local legend says it happened and at some point there has been this fictional name introduced to the tale. Did I see a ghost? I dont know, what I know is that I saw a woman jump from the castle wall but what caused that image will remain open to debate for ever more.
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Could it be Pills that over the years your memory became your Sisters'
That phenomenon is known as 'shared memory'.
What happens is that more than one person might see something unusual/anomalous and when one person interprets it a certain way and tells their interpretation to the other(s), then the others reinterpret what they saw to match the person's account.
It's all to do with memory being malleable and constructed rather than being an actual recording.
Memories you have of events can change dramatically over time too. As they are reconstructed each time they are recalled, they are prone to reinterpretation each time (such as in light of someone else telling you things occurred differently).
We trust our senses 100%, but they are no where near 100% trustworthy!
our words at the time were something like "Did you see that? ,we all said that at the same time,then we all said something like "did you see that,it looked like a woman just jumped off the wall" That is a fact not a reinterpretation , and it is a shared memory because we all saw what we saw, the question is what did we see to cause our collective brains and eyes to interpret it as the same thing?
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Another interesting finding is that false memories are completely indistinguishable from real memories, so if you have a false memory, it will seem and feel entirely genuine.
We trust our senses 100%, but they are no where near 100% trustworthy!
Im not quite sure what you are saying Jigsaw, are you implying that my memory of the event is a false one? remember that I have been very careful in stating it as it happened, I have repeated myself several times and yet still you suggest my memory is false. Jigsaw please be very clear, I have told you what I saw and who I saw it with,from what angle,distance,weather conditions. I saw a woman jump to her death and yet am I here saying "it was a ghost"? No, I am saying what was it? Now move on from your assumption that my memory is at fault and go back to the subject of the scientific analysis of an unexplained event.
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Im not quite sure what you are saying Jigsaw, are you implying that my memory of the event is a false one?
I have absolutely no idea what happened in your particular case.
All I'm pointing out is that there are ways of explaining it through psychological knowledge.
If you can't accept alternative, evidence-based, explanations to your own 'perception' then all power to you - but why waste people's time in asking for answers when you'll simply dismiss the (possible) answers you don't want to hear?
Post by lovelyyoungman on Feb 19, 2010 1:27:35 GMT
Pillsbury- It might be helpful to look back at your reaction to what you saw. Witnessing traumatic events in the first person can be extremely shocking, which is why I was surprised at your description of you and your sisters running towards where the woman fell, especially considering your ages. I would imagine at least one of you would have held back or at least been reluctant to rush towards what you would have known to be a mangled corpse.
I'm not suggesting that you have fabricated your story but what I am saying is that from what you've described, you actions look like those of someone who subconsciously does not believe they have truly seen someone fall to their death.
Amaris,its a fair point and I actually discussed this with my sister two days ago and we both agreed that we saw what I described earlier in the thread, sadly my other sister died 4 years ago so I cant ask her what she remembers.
So sorry to hear that Pills
Did I see a ghost? I dont know, what I know is that I saw a woman jump from the castle wall but what caused that image will remain open to debate for ever more.
Well I am finding this thread interesting from all sides of the discussion.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” Christopher Hitchens
Im not quite sure what you are saying Jigsaw, are you implying that my memory of the event is a false one?
What Jigsaw is saying, is that your perception of the events could indeeed be false. You see when an event occurs, your perception of it is a careful negotiation between your eyes, and your mind. That is basically what reality is, a compromise. It is rarely if ever accurate no matter how good your memory. It has nothing to do with the individual either, it is a flaw in human perception and well known to psychologists. There are even experiments which can demonstrate this to be true.
remember that I have been very careful in stating it as it happened, I have repeated myself several times and yet still you suggest my memory is false. Jigsaw please be very clear, I have told you what I saw and who I saw it with,from what angle,distance,weather conditions.
I understand your frustration on this, but Jigsaw is quite correct.
I saw a woman jump to her death and yet am I here saying "it was a ghost"? No, I am saying what was it? Now move on from your assumption that my memory is at fault and go back to the subject of the scientific analysis of an unexplained event.
I believe you are convinced you saw a woman jump to her death, yet there was no woman (you checked). That only realistically leaves you with the one viable option. That it did not happen the way you claim. This is undoubtedly a misperception of the events witnessed and your mind filling in the blanks to make sense of that situation.
Here is an example of how something like this may happen, I'm not saying this is what happened to you, but it may be something similar.
What you actually witnessed may have been something very mundane, like a bin bag fluttering on a thermal draft on the sun warmed side of the building. You see it only momentarily out of the corner of your eye, you turn to see the last dying seconds of it. At first you are confused, you have no idea what it was because it was so quick and fleeting. You see the high sides of the building, your first thought is someone might have fallen over the edge. The more you dwell on this the more your mind will fill in details that were not present in the original scene to make it seem plausible. These constructed details then become memory of the event, even though these details were not present originally.
Perhaps your sisters also momentarily seen the same "bag", and following a similar thought process as you also constructed additional details. When you ask did anyone see a woman falling off the wall, your sisters believe that is exactly what must have happened because you actually said "woman". This confirms their original suspicions, and now we have three people convinced that they actually seen a woman falling. They confer on what they witnessed, and each remembers an additional detail the others did not. The story then becomes unwittingly embelished and fuller, rounding out the corners and sounding more plausible.
Later on, additional information is provided by a 4th party, namely the legend of the jumping woman. Suddenly the whole event seems more real because of this independant confirmation from an external source. It is confirmation you readilly accept because it makes you feel sure of what you saw, and also maybe believe you are not going crazy.
You may feel special or privileged to have witnessed a rare and unusual event, and when recounting the tale at a later date, you may feel offended that others did not accept it as truth. This cheapens your experience, it makes you feel unappriciated, and perhaps falsely labled a liar. The only explanation that makes sense to you is that is had to have been paranormal. The paranormal would make this explanation possible, because with the paranormal, anything is possible via unknown means. It requires no proof, except the use of the words "I know what I saw" and "are you calling me a liar" and "I was not the only person to see this" and "it must have been a ghost".
Now like I said, I am sure this is not exactly what happened to you, but I am also sure there will be elements of this active in your version, as they would be in most versions of similar tales.
Also, my condolences to your sister. I had no idea. I hope you and your family are coping well.
I understand the logic of what you are saying but no it wasnt a bag and we were all very clear that a woman had jumped off the edge and as for running towards her to see what was going on, this comes down to your fight or flight reflex, my family all seem to have fight rather than flight, we have helped various times in accidents or emergencies and yes we all did run immediately up the hill to see if the lady was dead or needed medical help. It was before mobile phones so I couldnt just pull a mobile out and dial 999 so we went to help. I have also stated previously that the woman appeared to fall straight down ,so although I understand the analogy of seeing something being blown by the wind that doesnt fit what we saw. Again I understand that you are having to take my word for what I saw 24 years ago, but you should also note that as I have previously said, my telling of the story hasnt changed and I seek answers not to be told oh yes you have seen a ghost, as one, Im not sure what I saw and two ,nobody has defined exactly what a ghost is and that is why I asked about the stone tape theory in the first place. What I dont like is the idea that people automatically assume that just because a story is told 24 years after it happened that I have developed some sort of false memory. If I had witnessed this last night and reported it straight away,would you use false memory ? I think you would have asked me lots of questions but not necessarily say its a false memory. Also it wasnt something I spotted out of the corner of my eye, it was up above me and slightly to my right and there were no buildings or trees blocking my line of sight until the bottom third of the castle wall as previously described. If this had been a corner of the eye thing I wouldnt have even mentioned it
Finally, the written word on these forums can come across differently to how we would verbalise an arguement,so please note I am not getting stroppy about it, I just believe that in opening up about this event as well as being challenged myself over it, it is fair for me to challenge people's responses. I think people jump too easily to conclusions on most things particularly claims of the paranormal or unexplained. Eye witness accounts can be particularly unreliable which is why the police dont like to use them in prosecutions and I see that is what your arguement is based on here. Finally thanks for the kind words about my sister, she was a special person who I miss every day but she was also as mad as a bag of frogs.
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