"Spiritual Surgeon" Ray Brown

[tinkertoo]

Has anyone ever seen Ray Brown, "spiritual surgeon" in action or done any kind of investigation on him?  I've seen him do a demonstration of his "surgery" and couldn't believe how his followers genuinely believed that his personality changed when he is taken over by "Paul of Tarsus" - he was exactly the same, it was so obviously tosh with his followers experiencing placebo affects, if anything.  He seems to be coming more popular and well known and I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of him or seen him in action..........

[mac]

I've been aware of him for a couple of decades or more. I'm sure those who feel he's helped them will differ in their opinion.

When I see the evidence that he's a fake I'll examine it. Claims aren't evidence and placebo effects are still effects. They can apply in conventional medicine/treatment too. It comes down to whether they've been effective in helping with symptoms, even if a full cure doesn't happen. Again conventional medicine/treatment doesn't guarantee a cure of symptoms and we have to take the best that's on offer at the time.

Be glad for those helped by any treatment, be sad for those that nothing helps, be thankful when your own health is good.

[tinkertoo]

I see your point and the placebo affect is still of value, but the difference is that doctors and the medical profession will acknowledge the placebo affect and mention it as a possibility of how certain medications may work if you ask or discuss this with them.  Ray Brown doesn't say people may feel better if they believe in him and therefore be experiencing the placebo affect, he says people will feel better because Paul of Tarsus has operated on them through him.  When you see him live he also claims to be able to cure, not just help and alleviate symptoms (through the placebo affect).  If anyone dares to try and question "Paul of Tarsus", perhaps by asking him to speak in Hebrew or Aramaic or answer historical questions relevant to the time and place he would have lived in, feeble excuses are given as to why this can't be done and the person is quickly shunned by his devoted followers.

[mac]

Nov 9, 2016 13:53:17 GMT tinkertoo said:

I see your point and the placebo affect is still of value, but the difference is that doctors and the medical profession will acknowledge the placebo affect and mention it as a possibility of how certain medications may work if you ask or discuss this with them.  Ray Brown doesn't say people may feel better if they believe in him and therefore be experiencing the placebo affect, he says people will feel better because Paul of Tarsus has operated on them through him.  When you see him live he also claims to be able to cure, not just help and alleviate symptoms (through the placebo affect).  If anyone dares to try and question "Paul of Tarsus", perhaps by asking him to speak in Hebrew or Aramaic or answer historical questions relevant to the time and place he would have lived in, feeble excuses are given as to why this can't be done and the person is quickly shunned by his devoted followers.

Fair comments. He may not respond like a medically trained professional but surely what really matters is whether he is able to bring about the cures he claims. Have you found any data - not hearsay - to show he doesn't or that he does? Without either it's purely conjecture as to whether he is genuinely effective rather than achieving a placebo effect and whether the treatment brings about a cure of the condition.

Perhaps his 'patients' aren't really that much concerned either way if they feel better and continue to live, especially when they have found no effective prior treatment? And isn't it the case that it's mostly folk in a final-throw-of-the-dice situation who seek out his services? I'd be most persuaded by hearing from them - opinions from everyone else are of little value to me. I can hear opinions anytime.

[Mr. Jon Donnis]

I am well aware of Ray Brown, and yes he is a 100% fraud, anyone with half a brain can see that.
He was featured on a BBC documentary years and years ago about fake healers.

Also we have a thread on him here, not much on there but worth a look
moh2005.proboards.com/thread/1097

[Mr. Jon Donnis]

DM article on him here too, not very skeptical sadly
www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2727362/Psychic-surgeons-They-claim-channel-spirits-shrink-cancers-end-chronic-pain-without-picking-scalper-But-just-preying-desperate.html

[fullswing]

I wonder why these biblical figures are drawn to these semi-cockney wide boys. The proven fake Gary Mannion claims to be channelled by none other than Abraham, patriarch of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. By the way Saint Paul was known as Saul of Tarsus, and only began using his Roman name of Paul after his damascene conversion when he dropped the Tarsus suffix.