Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Dec 18, 2008 11:39:11 GMT
Gate Control Theory was recently thrown at me, and unfortunately i didnt know much about it. It looks like woo, sounds like woo, and walks like woo, but i cant find any good sceptical sites about it. And it does seem to be practiced around the world in hospitals.
So come on guys what can you tell me about it
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
This is also know as the pain gate theory.I attended a pain management course at my local hospital a few years ago and they were keen to push this. The theory goes like this.The nervous system has a number of gates in it,when you do something or have somethg that causes pain,you experience some pain but the nervous system protects itself by shutting some or all of these gates.If you have a condition that causes severe and constant pain,these gates are overwhelmed and no longer function properly. So the next time you say stub your toe or knock your self, the gates dont shut and your body is so sensitive to pain that you get an over reaction to a minor pain. There is a degree of logic to it and I have to say that as someone in constant pain it is true, a minor additional health problem can become unbearably painful on top of other issues.
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Gate control theory puts forward the idea that perception of pain is effected by nerves that do not carry pain signals ( nonnociceptive fibers) which can interfere with signals from pain carrying fibers(both kinds of PCF which carry quick instant pain and the more chronic throbbing type ) and inhibit the feeling of pain from both .
My understanding of it is that it trys to explain how when something stimultes only the non pain carrying fibers (for example rubbing the area you have hurt seems to lessen the pain because you are stiimulating the non pain carrying fibers) their stimulation inhibits the pain carrying ones ability to fire neurons to the pain centres laminae .
It all sounds very technical but i think it sort of boils down to the idea that pain can infact be controlled and the brain or rather perception of pain can be controlled and lessened by these non pain carrying fibers which "close the gate " if you like on the pain carrying ones .
Most people who suffer chronic pain probs have heard of TENS machines (you can pick one up from Lloyds chemist for about £15-£30 ) Well they work on this principle , electrodes stimulate the non pain carrying fibers and inhibt the perception of the pain lessening the effects .The stimulation can produce a kind of analgesia . The brain over a period of time "learns" if you like which signals are the more useful and which are the less useful and turns off the less useful ones from past experience .
Well thats the theory anyway as far as i understand it but its pretty much well recognised in chronic pain management techniques or at least as a means to explain how some of them work .
The guys who first put it forward are Ronald Melzack and Patrick Wall .
The gate control theory of pain, put forward by Ronald Melzack (a Canadian psychologist) and Patrick David Wall (a British physician) in 1962,[1] and again in 1965,[2] is the idea that the perception of physical pain is not a direct result of activation of nociceptors, but instead is modulated by interaction between different neurons, both pain-transmitting and non-pain-transmitting. The theory asserts that activation of nerves that do not transmit pain signals can interfere with signals from pain fibers and inhibit an individual's perception of pain.
Gate control theory asserts that activation of nerves which do not transmit pain signals, called nonnociceptive fibers, can interfere with signals from pain fibers, thereby inhibiting pain. Afferent pain-receptive nerves, those that bring signals to the brain, comprise at least two kinds of fibers - a fast, relatively thick, myelinated "Aä" fiber that carries messages quickly with intense pain, and a small, unmyelinated, slow "C" fiber that carries the longer-term throbbing and chronic pain. Large-diameter Aâ fibers are nonnociceptive (do not transmit pain stimuli) and inhibit the effects of firing by Aä and C fibers.
The peripheral nervous system has centers at which pain stimuli can be regulated. Some areas in the dorsal horn of the spinal cord that are involved in receiving pain stimuli from Aä and C fibers, called laminae, also receive input from Aâ fibers.[3] The nonnociceptive fibers indirectly inhibit the effects of the pain fibers, 'closing a gate' to the transmission of their stimuli.[3] In other parts of the laminae, pain fibers also inhibit the effects of nonnociceptive fibers, 'opening the gate'.[3]
An inhibitory connection may exist with Aâ and C fibers, which may form a synapse on the same projection neuron. The same neurons may also form synapses with an inhibitory interneuron that also synapses on the projection neuron, reducing the chance that the latter will fire and transmit pain stimuli to the brain (image on the right). The inhibitory interneuron fires spontaneously.[3] The C fiber's synapse would inhibit the inhibitory interneuron, indirectly increasing the projection neuron's chance of firing. The Aâ fiber, on the other hand, forms an excitatory connection with the inhibitory interneuron, thus decreasing the projection neuron's chance of firing (like the C fiber, the Aâ fiber also has an excitatory connection on the projection neuron itself). Thus, depending on the relative rates of firing of C and Aâ fibers, the firing of the nonnociceptive fiber may inhibit the firing of the projection neuron and the transmission of pain stimuli.[3]
Gate control theory thus explains how stimulus that activates only nonnociceptive nerves can inhibit pain. The pain seems to be lessened when the area is rubbed because activation of nonnociceptive fibers inhibits the firing of nociceptive ones in the laminae.[3] In transcutaneous electrical stimulation (TENS), nonnociceptive fibers are selectively stimulated with electrodes in order to produce this effect and thereby lessen pain.[3]
One area of the brain involved in reduction of pain sensation is the periaqueductal gray matter that surrounds the third ventricle and the cerebral aqueduct of the ventricular system. Stimulation of this area produces analgesia (but not total numbing) by activating descending pathways that directly and indirectly inhibit nociceptors in the laminae of the spinal cord.[3] It also activates opioid receptor-containing parts of the spinal cord.
Afferent pathways interfere with each other constructively, so that the brain can control the degree of pain that is perceived, based on which pain stimuli are to be ignored to pursue potential gains. The brain determines which stimuli are profitable to ignore over time. Thus, the brain controls the perception of pain quite directly, and can be "trained" to turn off forms of pain that are not "useful". This understanding led Melzack to assert that pain is in the brain.
The impact of this theory on medical treatment for pain has been profound, and has made it a multi-disciplinary field. Those being taught pain control techniques can actually be told why they work. This seems to play a major role in achieving results - which is explained most readily by psychoneuroimmunology, in which the nerves are seen as the link between the immune system and sensory and cognitive experience.
If you think about it, the mind is a very powerfull thing....look at those who break planks of wood, take kicks to the body as a sport (cant remember the name of them right now) or those who lie on beds of nails then have paving slabs put on them, now that has got to be painfull aswell as stupid in my opinion, but hey they choose to do it, so how come the body never gets hurt or feels pain with these activities, or the rituals of some tribes where they have metal spikes ran through their skin, the mind must be controlling the pain element of it, because if we just sat and ran a sharp piece of metal through us without thinking, it is going to damn well hurt !!!
So there has to be something in the gate theory lark. Just my opinion of course.
Post by Riding With The Angels on Jan 4, 2009 0:10:55 GMT
Although not all that connected to the original topic but I have seen enough awful injuries from broken bones to severed bits and pieces that I can say that often enough I have found that the injured person is none the wiser or crying out in pain until sometimes they see the injury itself. Call it shock or adrenalin - whatever you like but this must have something to do with these so called receptors. I don't think it's a particularly woo idea just an attempt to explain what naturally occurs within the body to keep it functioning normally in circumstances of intense stress.
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The body does amazing things at times of stress and trauma, to protect it's self RWA and maybe this is what scientists are looking into, the why's and where fore's of just what the human body can achieve and being as it is receptors in the brain that control the body, then I cant see anything woo about all this either.
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Jan 4, 2009 15:00:39 GMT
look at those who break planks of wood
There is a science behind this. Every time you punch or break something like this you actually damage your bones, they regenerate and the bone grows back thicker and stronger, which allows you to break planks of wood etc.
Same is with muscles, when you lift weights you actually rip your muscles every so slightly, they grow back thicker, thus your muscles get bigger.
take kicks to the body as a sport (cant remember the name of them right now)
I you on about the shaolin monks getting kicked in the nuts, all they do is suck the testees into the body, their penises are unused so useless anyway, thats why it doesnt hurt.
Nothing to do with mind over matter
or those who lie on beds of nails then have paving slabs put on them,
Science again sorry. The nails are spread out so all take equal weight of the body. I have been put on a bed of nails and although uncomfortable it is not painful as such.
Paving slabs break very easy when hit with a sledgehammer, and due to the size the pressure is spread out again.
so how come the body never gets hurt or feels pain with these activities,
The body does sometimes feel pain, but some people naturally have higher pain barriers than others, also with these activioties there is science behind them, and with a bit of training anyone can do it.
or the rituals of some tribes where they have metal spikes ran through their skin, the mind must be controlling the pain element of it, because if we just sat and ran a sharp piece of metal through us without thinking, it is going to damn well hurt !!!
Depends where it is put through, often the spikes are put through parts of the body with lesser concentrations of nerves, for example through the cheek, its actually a very thin piece of skin with few muscles etc.
Look at people who pierce their tongue or ears, it often hurts but they still do it dont they?
One of the most sensitive parts of the body is the finger tip, ask someone to pierce the finger tip, now that will bloody hurt.
So there has to be something in the gate theory lark. Just my opinion of course.
There may be something to mind over matter i accept that. But imaginary gates that work outside of the brain in different parts of the body? No i dont acept that
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
There may be something to mind over matter i accept that. But imaginary gates that work outside of the brain in different parts of the body? No i dont acept that
That's fair enough Jon you cant accept it, but it doesnt make it woo......
Who is to say that mind over matter and the gate theory arent connected, and what about the subconcious, it is amazing how that comes into play, or adrenaline, adrenaline can take the body way passed the pain barrier in extreem circumstances, who is to say there isnt a link between all of the above. we dont know for sure, this is why we have scientists...to research these things.
Agreed Jon the body does not and cannot think for itself and after reading back through what Ive posted so far, no where does it say that, it still goes back to the brain, the only way the body can survive without the brain is when a person is brain dead and on life support.
The way I am reading the long post I put up is, that you are teaching the brain to use the none pain carrying fibres in the body more, or either that I am reading it totally wrong and if I am then I will stand corrected ;D
