Autism is not caused by the MMR vacine it is mearly exagerated. Boys get more autism than girls because the majority of males construction is a pattern following structure, they like order and such alike things which autistic people follow on the whole. Its structure based and anyone can be born with any structure of mental variance but boys have more of the pattern structure etc. The cause is unknown as of yet, other than a mental anomoly that has to be understood and possibly overcome etc.
Oh yes. The infallibility of personal experience!!!
And yet the medical community ask the parents directly of their personal experience, of what changes the parents witnessed over what time scale and so on.
Look, if you're just going to respond to replies as if they are personal attacks then there's little point in you contributing is there?
I didn't respond to your post as though it was a personal attack. My response infact was to try and get you to understand this subject is personal,and infact my contribution means more to this thread,this subject than anyone who just gathers their information from a book/on line or attends bloody parent meetings. How dare you suggest my input is not as valid as anyone else's here. I live with this subject every single day.This subject encompasses my entire world,my future so please do not dismiss what I or any parent like me has to say or share! Do you think parents of Autistic kids just sit around accepting all explanations that are given to them,of course bloody not!
And in answer to Julia's post, I don't presume anything,regarding why it occurs more in males than females there have been many theories. At one point it was suggested that the genetic problem was carried on the sex gene by the males sperm,hence why fathers were being offered genetic counseling. So no I don't presume I am always open to possibilities because I want to know what causes this,what happened to my child and millions like him. So no I don't presume Julia, I don't know the cause, do you Julia... I mean for absolute definite?
Our children are not bloody oddities for people just to chat about and banter around what they think causes autism or not and then move on with their lives and forget about them.These are our children you guys are talking about, don't be so bloody dismissive of parents views on this subject.
Autism is not caused by the MMR vaccine it is mearly exagerated. Boys get more autism than girls because the majority of males construction is a pattern following structure, they like order and such alike things which autistic people follow on the whole. Its structure based and anyone can be born with any structure of mental variance but boys have more of the pattern structure etc. The cause is unknown as of yet, other than a mental anomoly that has to be understood and possibly overcome etc.
Exactly,we all have Autistic Traits but why is it exaggerated in some and not others? Regarding males construction if this were true then the females in the building trades etc would be proving your theory incorrect. The cause is not known,or what exaggerates it,causes it etc. I do not believe we will ever be allowed to know.
Autism is not caused by the MMR vacine it is mearly exagerated. Boys get more autism than girls because the majority of males construction is a pattern following structure, they like order and such alike things which autistic people follow on the whole. Its structure based and anyone can be born with any structure of mental variance but boys have more of the pattern structure etc. The cause is unknown as of yet, other than a mental anomoly that has to be understood and possibly overcome etc.
I spoke once on a TV documentary (Panorama) about the vaccine I spoke to the top experts. I asked them if they could catagorically 100% prove that the vaccine DID NOT cause Autism and they said "No they couldn't say for sure" I have also read much of Dr Andrew Wakefields papers, it was funny how the government funded his research then pulled it when he got to close, also they discredited him to keep him off the case, then ultimately prosecuting him. Until anyone knows 100% you cannot assume.
I will go into this later when I have time to type this all out, but the research was quite evidential.
Something to read, this is a 2005 paper on the findings and questions and answers from Dr Andrew Wakefield, this was conducted when he was at the Royal Free.
My son was diagnosed with ADHD and Asperger's. Do I think the vaccines are to blame? No. Do I have any proof of that? No. He was showing some of the signs well before he had barely started on his rounds of vaccines, and I honestly think his "issues" are inherited. I have ADD, and now that I've learned about Asperger's, in hindsight of my childhood, I could probably add that to myself.
I do think, however, that overloading a small child's body with anything might cause some damage, which is why my husband and I agreed we would do our next child's vaccines differently. Sadly, we didn't get the chance as I lost the baby on Christmas day.
Even though I have a child that has low spectrum autism, I still think vaccines are important. They just don't need to be given in such large batches as I've heard some babies have had. There was a lawsuit here in the states where the pediatrician gave an 18 month old something like 10 shots in one visit. The child is severely autistic.
My son has the basic vaccines, and I'm very glad he does. I wouldn't want him to die of something that could have been prevented. I'd rather have him with me than buried in the ground because he died of chickenpox or the measles.
I do, however, think more care needs to go into making sure the vaccines are safe. I don't think the US sold bad vaccines to other countries but rather destroyed them. At least I hope so.
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I do, however, think more care needs to go into making sure the vaccines are safe. I don't think the US sold bad vaccines to other countries but rather destroyed them. At least I hope so.
One of the vaccines that I mentioned that was taken off the market in 1991 was the MMR by Smith Kline Beecham the Mumps component of that vaccine was flawed this gave a child a brain swelling enough to cause convulsions and several brain changes, in particular that year the vaccines were sold off by our government to Brazil to use in children there, there was a significant increase of children who went onto be diagnosed Autistic on the Spectrum also known as Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I have spoken to many top scientists who have studied Autism and they have found more a significant increase in more girls now than ever since the introduction of the vaccines. So you might be able to draw your own conclusions but for some they live now with the knowledge that their children are autistic maybe as a result of this MMR any child with this ailment will always go through life with very severe learning and emotional problems.
Here it is explained on why they did the study to see if MMR was to blame.
In my view the cover-up of vaccine damage that has entailed the denigration of thousands of parents and the complete, almost Romanian-style lack of medical care of hundreds of damaged children, encouraged by the government, the medical establishment and the multinational pharmaceutical industry together with a number of journalists, is one of the most disgraceful incidents in British medical politics over the last century. To my mind it ranks in a degree of obscenity with the cover up over the advancing number of environmentally induced cases of cancer in our society and the decades-long attempts by industry to conceal the health damage caused by asbestos. In the case of MMR, there is a government still in power that indemnified the world's biggest pharmaceutical company, GSK, against all claims made by the parents or relatives of vaccine damaged children. When the adverse reactions occurred in their thousands, in the form of inflammatory bowel disease and regressive autism, seizures and brain damage, the government battened down the hatches and began one of the biggest propaganda campaigns ever mounted in Britain. [2008 Oct] An Open Letter to Brian Deer Rebutting His Article 'Families duped by a sad smearmaster of MMR fabrication and hatred' by Martin J Walker MA
[Feb 2008] MMR AND THE SIMPLE TRUTH ABOUT AUTISM Does the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine cause autism? I vote yes. Of course, that’s just one man’s opinion – but one who’s spent the last three years listening to parents and enlightened pediatricians and combing through adverse events reports and just generally trying to think for himself.
This is a child who was born healthy, had colic, lots of fever and swelling after his vaccines, and hives after he got his immunizations. He went on to regress into autism. The thing that really kicked him over the edge seemed to be his pre-kindergarten booster vaccinations. He had started doing better developmentally and then he was "never the same again" after he received MMR, DPT, and IPV on the same day. Physicians, please do not give the second MMR at kindergarten to children in the autism spectrum. In this country it is given to every child because five percent of the kids do not develop enough antibodies after one dose. This shows the challenge/re-challenge phenomenon, where if you give autistic patients the second MMR, there's an increase in acute inflammation and epithelial changes in a significant number of patients versus controls. I recommend that you consider preloading prior to vaccines with certain things like vitamin A and other antioxidants. Please do not give live viral vaccines when the children are sick or on antibiotics or have diarrhea. Conference Presentations: Elizabeth Mumper, M.D.
As for your letter claiming "A large body of scientific evidence shows no link between the vaccine and autism or bowel disease" where is it? There is not one study that demonstrates that. You have also had eight years to produce an alternative explanation for the damage caused to the MMR vaccine damaged children. So where is it? Apart from Wakefield's original study, where are all the clinical studies that support you? There are none of those either. Where are the peer reviewed short and long term safety studies that show the MMR vaccine is safe. There are none. You cannot produce accurate figures for the risk to children from measles. The DoH's references to the studies they rely on for the figures given to parents are out of date and inadequate. I know - I asked for them under the Freedom of Information Act. MMR - LESSONS IN LINE DRAWING Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:48:30 +0100 From: Clifford G. Miller
"I knew that MMR was a mistake from the start. Within 10 seconds I could see that it was a bad idea. All the vaccinations prior to MMR could occur in nature; they had never been combined before. Normally, viruses can't infect at the same time, so if you put more than one virus into a body at once you are making a grave error. Surely the point of vaccination is to make it safer for children, but with MMR a child could be overwhelmed, and might not recover. The deaths and severe reactions to MMR are just the tip of the iceberg. The Government should stop lying and recognise that MMR is one step too far. It's all nonsense. It's all about greed, and the gullibility of buyers at the Department of Health. These people are acting on behalf of the nation and they should be more sceptical."--Dr Peter Manfield
Only two of Mr Harris's six children had the MMR vaccine and both of them are autistic. [Media Feb 29 2004] MMR docs' links with drugs firms
"Dr Kenneth Aitken, a specialist in the treatment of autism, believes there is a clear link between autism and the MMR jab. "When I was training, one in 2,500 [children were autistic]. Now it is one in 250. At the moment, the only logical explanation for this is MMR," he said."
"A large body of scientific evidence shows no link between the vaccine and autism or bowel disease" where is it? There is not one study that demonstrates that."
Anyone who quotes that in all seriousness doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
I stopped the bus for Sebastian Coe, He couldn't catch it for he was too slow.
I'm sorry, but your last post was very hard to follow. There seemed to be a lot of run-on sentences, incomplete sentences, and...weirdness. Not sure if the copy and paste is to blame or my denseness.
Where are you getting your information? A website or actual studies?
I also notice in your reply to me, the MMR was taken off the market 18 years ago. I don't think that would have any bearing on studies done now. I have to say that I am unaware of what the UK does for vaccines since I'm an American, but wtf is your government doing selling drugs that was bad to another country? Is that what you're saying? The UK sold known faulty vaccines to another country? If this is true, why hasn't there been an investigation?
Being a parent of a child with ADHD and AS, I wonder every day what caused it and if it could have been prevented. I'm of several minds on the spike of diagnoses, though, and I feel the biggest cause is that it's being cited more than ever before. Is it possible that vaccines somehow trigger more severe autism? Maybe, but it might also be something else and people a focusing on vaccines with what could be disastrous results for future generations. For all we know it's the result of decades of chemical additives in our snack cakes that caused genetic deformity and our children are paying for our Ding Dong addiction.
I still think vaccinating against disease is important, but I also think we need to stop with so many and at such a young age. I don't know about the UK, but here in The States drug companies advertise constantly (and not just for "male enhancement"!), and there's one commercial that makes me roll my eyes and hope the Prez keeps one of his promises of stopping crap ads. Lots of happy scenes of children playing, young teens holding hands, much smiling and smooching, but all during this the announcer terrifies us by saying things like "one second your child is fine, then next he or she could be dead...and all it takes is a kiss." It's for a meningitis vaccine. Hmmm, wonder if it's on YouTube? <rummages a bit>
"A large body of scientific evidence shows no link between the vaccine and autism or bowel disease" where is it? There is not one study that demonstrates that."
Anyone who quotes that in all seriousness doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.
I don't wish to antagonise people as I know this is a highly emotive subject but this whole subject area has turned into a conspiracy theory. More information is required for parents admittedly and unfortunately too many people are sourcing information from spurious websites and not looking at basic facts. Equally there seems a worrying tendency in this to dismiss experts and listen to lets say less qualified sources.
My girlfriend is pregnant with her first child and I will speak to my GP (who I trust) when the time comes and take his recommendation. (This is the kind of thing we did before the internet.)
Perhaps I can provide an analogous situation. Sometimes in my job I will be responsible or be consulted for the injection of treatment chemicals to a production process. It is very common for the platform to suffer from upsets, separation is lost or blockages occur. The first thing a platform operator will do is to blame a chemical. This will be immediate without reason and a lot of time will be wasted combating this reasoning. The situation will usually be complex due to so many variables but an operator will just make a simplistic link.
Now this is a system designed by a human never mind the complexity of a human being.
do not dismiss what I or any parent like me has to say or share!
Where have I done or even suggested that?
Clearly you are too emotionally involved to actually debate the issue so there's little point in me trying to put forward a more rational, science-based view; and I do actually know a thing or two about the issue.
You know what I think it is,not so much I would have thought for parents of children whom from a very early age developed AS etc, but for parents whose children were developed as any other until 15 months on wards it is very much seeing a trigger of some kind. The child literally changed overnight. Whether this is the Autism laying dormant or whatever but something triggers it.
Is it chemicals/additives within our food or whatever,the problem is as the danger is to focus purely on the vaccines as the cause/trigger. Another danger is to focus simply on a genetic mutation/chromosomal abnormality. For children who have had this from day one genetics would suggest more of an influence/cause,but for kids who develop this much later in life..no I am sorry there is a trigger there has to be.
Conspiracy theory, of course the government never ever covers its backside , our government, no never surely not
I apologise I took whatyou said about my not being able to contribute to this thread as meaning that....My bad
Clearly you are too emotionally involved
Too emotionally involved??? Jigsaw everything I knew,loved and adored about my son died in front of me overnight, the same night he had the MMR.I literally had to learn to love,cope and get used to having another child instead of whom I knew. Emotionally involved,hell yes! Open to suggestions and other possibilities? Of course,more so than I suspect people who are not emotionally involved.
to actually debate the issue
How can anyone debate an issue that actually has absolutely no proof 100% either way? This I thought would be more of a discussion
so there's little point in me trying to put forward a more rational, science-based view;
Whatever the outcome it can only be scientific/biological. At this point all it can be is a view as no one has proved either way what triggers/causes this
and I do actually know a thing or two about the issue.
Your child is within the Autistic Spectrum?Do you have first hand experience of this or second hand? I know more than a thing or two about the issue, I as thousands of parents have been researching and trying to find answers for many years. In my case 8 years,others much longer!
Science can blabber as much as it wants about genetics and so on,and of course that makes absolute sense. Parents who in mine and other situations are asking what caused this,what triggered it. Our kids did not develop Autism until much later in their development. A scientist can sit there to a group of parents like myself and state categorically that it is genetic and nothing to do with the MMR etc. So why do parents like myself keep coming back to the MMR? Because science deals in quantitative research and data,parents deal with qualitative. As mentioned before, what science is not able to answer credibly is why for example you take a hundred children who have developed Autism,all of them developed this later on in life between 15 months and 22 months for example. The parents saw the change happen in most cases instantaneously of having the MMR. Different ages,different backgrounds,different DNA structures totally unrelated to each other.Yet every single one an instantaneous change.
What is the common denominator here? That would be the MMR!
I also notice in your reply to me, the MMR was taken off the market 18 years ago. I don't think that would have any bearing on studies done now. I have to say that I am unaware of what the UK does for vaccines since I'm an American, but wtf is your government doing selling drugs that was bad to another country? Is that what you're saying? The UK sold known faulty vaccines to another country? If this is true, why hasn't there been an investigation?
18 years ago that particular batch of vaccine was faulty and was taken off the market, the same was then sold aborad.
Good question I would like to see the studies, in Finland a similar study was made, I have the facts somewhere and will have to dig them out.
I still think vaccinating against disease is important, but I also think we need to stop with so many and at such a young age.
So do I, but the older vaccines were not thoroughly researched as they should have been and banged on the market to get the children protected. Most vaccines are given in concession with DPT jabs, given so many inoculations in a short space of time must cause some kind of change in a childs health.
Polio, measles, whooping cough, small pox...those worry me.
They worry me too. I had a rubella vaccine and now I have an Autoimmune Disease, this could have been caused by this vaccine and this was given to me at the age of 19, until then I had no problems health wise, it makes me wonder if it had caused something?
This is a subject that has touched 2 out of 3 of my lovely children. For a long time I thought the MMR could be responsible for the autism but now my opinions have changed after sitting and working out some basics with my own father's genetics.
I have a family history on my fathers side of autism and related issues. It's astounding just how many family members (especially boys) are affected by it along with aspergers and semantic pragmatic. Our oldest child has aspergers, high level autism and displayed characteristics of semantic pragmatic especially when younger. I was told it wouldn't happen again over 20 years ago and the doctors were wrong.
Our youngest child is profoundly autistic. At 5 months old he was beginning to talk, sing and showed intelligence above and beyond what an average baby would show. Then slowly but surely his learning and advancements started to slow down. He was late at walking, his speech was virtually non-existent but he had a personality second to none. We had our children innoculated with the MMR because of the fear of measles alone but I can't, no matter how hard I try, say categorically that the MMR is at fault. It's a well established fact that most of the males on my father's side suffer in one way or another but yet the girls, as a rule, escape the severer side of things.
We're fortunate in the fact that our children have never lost their individualities but sadly some wonderful children do retract into themselves and science nor anybody has given concrete and valid reasons for this. I'm appalled that after all these years and the increase in autism and aspergers that parents are still left wondering. If you knew my family history there is definitely a link. I would dearly like to see proper and thorough research done but all I can tell you at this present time is that we don't fall into the MMR line of thinking at all.
I would go so far to say that if we'd have had more children and they were males the risk of autism would have been all too evident. Scientists need to sit down and start from the beginning, not miss anything out, scrutinize the smallest of details and once and for all give parents something to work with. But I also fear that if this is done we will end up with some parents having terminations, for eg, because they run a risk and this would be wrong. Without our children my life wouldn't be the same and autism truly is a word. In many respects it's a double edged sword that should be sorted one way or another.
Maybe our situation is different but that's all I can tell you to show just how our own situation has played out.
A great post Libbi and a well reasoned. I personally feel that this constant rehash of the MMR argument is hindering potential progress with this. I think these issues and increased incidence of allergies/asthma needs a great deal of attention and research.
and I do actually know a thing or two about the issue.
Your child is within the Autistic Spectrum?Do you have first hand experience of this or second hand?
Sorry, but having a child with autism doesn't make you an expert on autism.
I studied autism as a module on my psychology degree. That doesn't make me an expert either (and I wouldn't claim to be one) but I am familiar with autism and I have read a lot of scientific research on it.
There isn't a definitive answer as to the cause of autism yet but there is plenty of good research into this area. It seems that genetic susceptibility is required and that environmental factors play a role too.
And 'environmental factors' includes conditions in the womb (!)
I agree gezr with you there..there are so many different illnesses and disabilities that are on the increase that it's very frustrating for parents who're left without answers. A simple allergy not so many years ago can now be life threatening and so on and no child deserves to have their health gambled on. Scientists need to look forward, concentrate on the causes and miss nothing out no matter how trivial it may seem.
All parents should have peace of mind and it's disheartening to see the sheer lack of information and results. It may sound melodramatic but through my own lovely kiddies it's made me more determined but has also highlighted a genetic issue that definitely exists. Thank you.
Sorry, but having a child with autism doesn't make you an expert on autism.
Nope but darn nearer than someone who has a brief interest in the subject! Where did I actually say that it did make a parent an expert?
I studied autism as a module on my psychology degree. That doesn't make me an expert either (and I wouldn't claim to be one) but I am familiar with autism and I have read a lot of scientific research on it.
I studied autism as one of the modules within my psychology studies too. Social workers take Psychology degrees,many people who hope to work within community based careers take this type of degree. This is not a specialisation but a general degree studying various disorders,developmental psychological and so on, so no it certainly does not make you or anyone else an expert within this specialised field, I totally agree with you on this.
There still is not one concrete study/research that has been undertaken where the findings cannot be discredited whether it was with the research,the researcher themselves or the samples studied.
There isn't a definitive answer as to the cause of autism yet but there is plenty of good research into this area.
Yes there is some good research in this area,but also every piece of research that has been produced has had its flaws.
It seems that genetic susceptibility is required and that environmental factors play a role too.
Totally agree
And 'environmental factors' includes conditions in the womb (!)
Absolutely they include the possibility of this,as well as outside of the womb,including the possibility of damage done by vaccines and other environmental factors outside of the womb!