The point behind my probably uninformed post was that God and ghosts are both supernatural beings, ie. beings for which we can find no scientific proof. How does one decide that, say, God is real but ghosts are not, or that ghosts are real but God is not? Many Christians will say that they don't believe in ghosts, as though belief in them is a preposterous idea, and yet others I know believe 'ghosts' to be demons. Nothing I say is ever intended to offend anyone, and if I have done, I apologise. I did claim that I have a problem understanding, not that anyone else has a problem.
It's a valid point. How does one know where to draw the line. There appears to be an equal amount of evidence for god as there are for ghosts, and yet some people believe one and not the other.
I suspect it might have something to do with the stigma attached to it. It's socially acceptable to believe in God, especially since more than half of the population of the planet believe in some sort of divine being, whereas many people think (or used to think) that if you believe in ghosts, you must be mad! The huge influx of paranormal TV programmes recently has changed that view point a bit.
It's the same as wondering how someone with a belief in God doesn't also believe in Thor or Zeus. Again, equal amounts of evidence, but one sounds utterly ridiculous, and one is widely accepted.
The nature of belief is a fascinating subject!
Fry: Hey, wait, I'm having one of those things…you know, a headache with pictures. Leela: An idea?
Thanks, bujin, for understanding what I was driving at. I seem to have the rather disturbing gift of offending people unintentionally.
'All through this short life we give of ourselves, giving and giving and slowly diminishing. Leaving a mark that will gradually fade, ash in the breeze, snowballs in negative.'
Good points guys. If people get offended by your comments, it's not your fault. It's not as if you are saying you hate them or anything like that. You are just questioning the beliefs of a religion, which seems to be frowned upon. And yet Scientology (rightly) gets laughed at. But just because a religion is older, it doesnt make it wiser.
Questioning your own beliefs is something that is frowned upon in christianity. Before anyone states that Im talking rubbish, please note that I felt this first hand when I questioned my beliefs as a mormon. when I see the people from my old church, they say they are praying for me.
Im sure they think they are being nice, but I feel that they are patronising me by holding their beliefs before mine unintentionally.
I dont really know what my point is. Maybe its that if you are religious, ask questions and dont believe because you have been brought up to believe it and you WANT it to be true. That isnt proof. Thats self-deception.
I'm doling out karma all over the shop today. This means I have to stay online for at least another 2 hours though...
'All through this short life we give of ourselves, giving and giving and slowly diminishing. Leaving a mark that will gradually fade, ash in the breeze, snowballs in negative.'
Good points guys. If people get offended by your comments, it's not your fault. It's not as if you are saying you hate them or anything like that. You are just questioning the beliefs of a religion, which seems to be frowned upon. And yet Scientology (rightly) gets laughed at. But just because a religion is older, it doesnt make it wiser.
Questioning your own beliefs is something that is frowned upon in christianity. Before anyone states that Im talking rubbish, please note that I felt this first hand when I questioned my beliefs as a mormon. when I see the people from my old church, they say they are praying for me.
Im sure they think they are being nice, but I feel that they are patronising me by holding their beliefs before mine unintentionally.
I dont really know what my point is. Maybe its that if you are religious, ask questions and dont believe because you have been brought up to believe it and you WANT it to be true. That isnt proof. Thats self-deception.
I quite agree, it seems that the more you reject rational viewpoints and contradictory evidence that goes against the faith position the more virtue you have and the more pious you are! ..so effectively , ignorance is bliss and is rewarded . What a strange way to behave..
I think they need an Electric Monk to do the believing for them:
"The Electric Monk was a labour-saving device, like a dishwasher or a video recorder. Dishwashers washed tedious dishes for you, thus saving you the bother of washing them yourself, video recorders watched tedious television for you, thus saving you the bother of looking at it yourself; Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you what was becoming an increasingly onerous task, that of believing all the things the world expected you to believe."
Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.
I'm quite convinced that L Ron Hubbard is laughing his arse off in his grave! I have the strong suspicion that his whole Scientology argument was a set-up. Surely no-one can seriously believe the core beliefs behind it! It's just absolutely bonkers! It makes the big three faiths sound plausible!!!
Fry: Hey, wait, I'm having one of those things…you know, a headache with pictures. Leela: An idea?
belief in God goes way back to the dawn of time, it is based on people being awed by events ,that today although great to watch or fascinating scientifically are now understood. The belief that God is in charge comes thru time from the teachings of parents to their children. This "faith" is transferred as a result. As our understanding of the universe grows we are slowly debunking the myths behind this. The fanaticism that we are seeing today in Islam is more to do with the religiously controlled governments of the middle east wanting to control their people the way the church controlled Europe in the middle ages. The interesting thing is in America where Christian fundamentalism is on the rise. I actually think that the move towards atheism and agnosticism is in many ways a sad thing as the respect for people that was taught in the era of most people going to church on a weekly basis is sadly lacking in modern society. yes even as an atheist I can see the benefits to the church being the moral compass of society unfortunately the modern church is a politically correct weak shadow of its former self that is frankly an irrelevance today. Is belief in god irrational? no is blind faith irrational ? no is refusing to accept that the claims of the bible are somewhat innacurate and based on the politically motivated writings of the medieval church? yes. Faith has a place in modern society and i will never dismiss someones faith. I will however always ask them to consider the scientific evidence of such things as darwin's theory of evolution against creationism and intelligent design.
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I actually think that the move towards atheism and agnosticism is in many ways a sad thing as the respect for people that was taught in the era of most people going to church on a weekly basis is sadly lacking in modern society.
I think that's more of a product of political correctness than lack of belief in a deity. There's such a fine line between disciplining kids and abusing them these days that many people don't bother. Kids are no longer taught respect in school because the teachers are no longer allowed to discipline them in the way they were when I was at school. So they're free to get away with a hell of a lot more than back then.
I think the move towards atheism is a good thing, because I believe that it shows that humanity is maturing.
yes even as an atheist I can see the benefits to the church being the moral compass of society unfortunately the modern church is a politically correct weak shadow of its former self that is frankly an irrelevance today.
I think morality can be taught without the need to reference a 2000 year old myth.
is blind faith irrational ? no
It is irrational. Especially when you choose to believe one thing and not something else based on the same lack of evidence.
Fry: Hey, wait, I'm having one of those things…you know, a headache with pictures. Leela: An idea?
Bujin ,you miss my point , society has changed in many ways for the better but in some it is infinetely worse. The church was a place that people went for guidance and structure in their lives, whether it is right or wrong is not my point. Political correctness was brought in as a way of regimenting tolerance yet it has had the opposite effect. Is atheism a mature position? I am one but it doesnt necessarily mean I am right it just shows that I do not accept medieval politics as my moral compass.
Disciplining children in schools is totally irrelevant. I was never caned or had any form of corporal punishment , in fact I only remember one time as a child being smacked, I have smacked my children and dont see what relevance that has to the subject of faith. As for not referring to a 2000 year old myth, that is wrong, the myth is a 1000 year old one . The teachings of the early church were very different, you should read such books as the Hiram key, uriels machine and the second messiah and the holy blood and the holy grail . Ok alot of it is about templar legend but the detail on Jesus's real teachings and beliefs are fascinating. Finally I stand by the "is blind faith irrational?no" quote. Those who believe do not see it as irrational they see it as the very foundation of their being and the light by which they are guided.If such faith works for them ,then who are we to criticise it?
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Ok, I see your point. I disagree on a few points though.
pillsbury0 said:
Political correctness was brought in as a way of regimenting tolerance yet it has had the opposite effect.
That's true. I think political correctness has been extremely badly managed, and it's been taken to such extremes these days that it is just stupid.
Disciplining children in schools is totally irrelevant. I was never caned or had any form of corporal punishment , in fact I only remember one time as a child being smacked, I have smacked my children and dont see what relevance that has to the subject of faith.
It's got nothing to do with the subject of faith. But it is relevant to discipline, and it's why I believe this country has gone to rats*it. Not the decline in religious beliefs.
As for not referring to a 2000 year old myth, that is wrong, the myth is a 1000 year old one . The teachings of the early church were very different, you should read such books as the Hiram key, uriels machine and the second messiah and the holy blood and the holy grail . Ok alot of it is about templar legend but the detail on Jesus's real teachings and beliefs are fascinating.
Another book worth reading is The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty, which argues (quite successfully) that Jesus didn't even exist - that the whole thing is just a myth that has been built up over time.
Fry: Hey, wait, I'm having one of those things…you know, a headache with pictures. Leela: An idea?
I keep harping on about this, but this country was NOT a moral paradise when Christianity was at its height. People say that society is more violent now, but I would dispute that. Humans stole, lied, cheated, killed and deceived in the past, just as they do now. There were prostitutes, body snatchers, murderers, adulterers, rapists, slave traders and exploiters of children. Those in positions of power were corrupt, just as they are now.
I also would like to say again that it is perfectly possible to be a decent human being with a strong moral code, and not be religious. It is about respect for your fellow humans, not belief in an afterlife where you'll get rewarded.
'All through this short life we give of ourselves, giving and giving and slowly diminishing. Leaving a mark that will gradually fade, ash in the breeze, snowballs in negative.'
Bujin thanks for the tip on the book, I'll give it a read,it always helps to read new perspectives. I see your point on the discipline thing,We agree on a lot,good to talk to you.
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I also would like to say again that it is perfectly possible to be a decent human being with a strong moral code, and not be religious. It is about respect for your fellow humans, not belief in an afterlife where you'll get rewarded.
Bujin thanks for the tip on the book, I'll give it a read,it always helps to read new perspectives. I see your point on the discipline thing,We agree on a lot,good to talk to you.
. What a strange way to behave..
