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Post by bujin on Apr 3, 2009 8:25:32 GMT
A few months ago with the young scientist presenter who looks like he's trying to be a rocker about 28 - 32 years old. He's 41, actually. And he WAS a rocker. Or a musician, at least, with D:Ream in the 1990s. |
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Post by zzzep on Apr 3, 2009 9:47:18 GMT
'That's an idea within physics and it's not universally accepted.
It's an explanation that gets around many of the problems of the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics; but the Copenhagen Interpretation is not universally accepted either.
It makes many predictions that work but if you have to start invoking the idea of an infinite number of universes to keep it coherent then I would think it's ultimately wrong.
That sort of extravagance to make a theory work is a bit too much for my liking.
........................................................................................................'
Why tell Adder...?...
QP is the sole output..and it has been half a quark of validation and an infinity of Kook guesses
The true data is more bizarre than a bent medium would contrive the real problem..but the whole QP community have responded by writing endless amounts of completely fascinating, but ultimately fallacious books..whilst the real state of affairs is that nothing has moved on beyond wave particle duality in validation ..
Unless ( and this is a big unless )..QP's own version of psychic guesswork and utter Prediction is to be believed with the endless stream of egocentric predictions
Don't get me wrong here again..i've read the subject extensively over almost 30 years,and shall remain staunch for it..but aside from tiny groups of 3/4 of most eminent QP in any given decade its a fairytale for the sake of the same old ambition
There has been Zero universal agreement...much infighting and more kook literature than a multi verse of psychic fakes can muster... few tiny discoveries...and a lot of hot air.
Its no good moaning at Adder...use ur magic wiki finger and view it all thats going down...see how the rest of your life could be taken up looking at material thats less likely that a poltergeist visitation and how easily QP can out-bulls*it the other fakes.
In many ways worse...a QP fantasy contains delusions of a finite universe to be discovered with a blackboard and chalk..leading to them effectively becoming a Diety...pmsl
Why did Adder need to be pressed to give that link though..w
Was it not obvious he was clearly refering to the most fundermental common garden aspects of the QP matter?
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Post by bujin on Apr 3, 2009 11:02:33 GMT
With regard to the monkeys and shakespeare comment earlier, it's true if we live in an infinite universe. We don't.
A quick calculation showed that assuming a monkey typed at a constant rate of 5 characters per second, it would need approximately 20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times the current age of the universe to be reasonably sure of randomly typing just the Shakespeare play "As You Like It".
Perhaps we could use a large number of monkeys instead? Well, given that there are approximately 1E+80 atoms in the universe, and that a body contains of the order 1E+27 atoms, even if the entire universe was made up of monkeys (let's ignore the typewriter), that's around 1E+53 monkeys, so it could perform the task in a bit less time. It would still need
20000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000 times the current age of the universe to complete the one Shakespeare story.
That's around 1E+145 years. At the moment, I don't have the numbers with me, but if you read the last chapter of Phil Plait's "Death from the Skies", he talks about how the universe will eventually die out. I'm pretty sure that the amount of time it would take for 1E+53 monkeys to hit upon As You Like It, the entire cosmos would have faded away to nothing. Since the universe is composed entirely of monkeys (as stipulated above due to the number of atoms), the monkeys themselves would have faded away too...
(Yes, I'm having a boring day in work! ;D )
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Post by hellyp on Apr 3, 2009 11:12:15 GMT
I'm glad you are having a boring day at work, because that was 'cool', as I believe the young people of today say.
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Post by asdfg on Apr 3, 2009 13:17:49 GMT
Why tell Adder...?... QP is the sole output..and it has been half a quark of validation and an infinity of Kook guesses Well i was just having a bit of a late night rant. ;D I'm rather pleased to see that someone who knows more about physics than I do seeing a lot of this QP stuff as nonsense though. Most of it, as far as I can tell, comes from the idea of indeterminacy and wave function collapse. Allow a bit more determinacy into the picture and do away with the notion of wave functions collapsing on observation and many of the problems and paradoxes go away - at least that's a more scientific (i.e. parsimonious) idea than postulating an infinite number of universes to make your problems disappear! I wish I knew more about quantum physics, but it's not so much that that astonishes me, it's the (lack of) logical thinking that seems to accompany QP that I can't get my head around. Yes, inventing infinite universes is not qualitatively any different to inventing universal consciousness to explain psychic abilities - neither is needed if the fundamental assumptions (wave function collapse, psychic ability) are wrong. No wonder credophiles like to appeal to QP for the answers as to how their particular belif works! |
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Post by zzzep on Apr 3, 2009 13:25:03 GMT
Lol Jig Hang on tho..u may actually know more than i do on it Its a really interest field thats for sure...nice posts...thanks  |
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Post by zzzep on Apr 3, 2009 13:27:41 GMT
No wonder credophiles like to appeal to QP for the answers as to how their particular belief works!
Spot-On ;D
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Post by asdfg on Apr 3, 2009 16:10:20 GMT
Well for one thing, you'd need to prove that psychic abilities exist before you need to start coming up with such fanciful, and frankly meaningless, explanations for it. You're into the realm of mysticism with all this speculation here. You may believe you're thinking scientifically by using scientific sounding words, but that is a fallacy in itself. But like I say, step 1 is to prove that psychic ability exists. Then, and only then, do we need to worry about an explanation for it. There's no need for this cart-before-the-horse thinking. |
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Post by bujin on Apr 3, 2009 16:35:44 GMT
Ok, I'm home now, and to add to my earlier post, I have just checked Phil Plait's book.
The Stelliferous Era, which we are now in, will run until the universe is a hundred thousand times as old as it is now. This is the era in which stars are born and die. After 1E+15 years, there will be no hydrogen or helium left with which to create new stars.
After this comes the Degenerate Era, once the last of the normal fusing stars die. The universe will consist of degenerate, low-mass objects that lack the capability to fuse, such as brown dwarfs. White dwarfs, neutron stars and black holes will also still exist. This age will run from the end of the stelliferous era until the universe is 1E+31 (that's 1000000000000000000000000000000) times the current age of the universe.
After this, the only things that will survive are the black holes. But black holes evaporate very slowly over time due to Hawking radiation. The last black holes will have evaporated after 1E+92 years, or 1E+84 times the current age of the universe.
After that, it's simply nothing. Darkness. The universe is just a soup of particles that is so thin that countless years can go by without two particles ever meeting. And this goes on to infinity.
Our 1E+145 years that is required for our impossibly huge number of monkeys to randomly type out As You Like It is well into the Dark Era.
It's often difficult to contemplate these numbers. The Dark Era starts after 1E+92 years. At 1E+93 years, the universe is ten times older than it was at the start of the Dark Era. At 1E+94 years, it is a hundred times older. 1E+95 years is a thousand times older. So at 1E+145 years, the universe is a staggering 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times older than it was when it entered the Dark Era.
So even in a phenomenally vast, but non-infinite universe, there simply isn't enough time for monkeys to ever type out one of the stories of Shakespeare.
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Post by blackadder on Apr 3, 2009 17:04:57 GMT
Your limiting to one dimension of time in a single universe, but then I didn't link that point the monkey thing.
Also your taking the expression too literal just to take the mic. The randomness was mentioned to represent the universe covering all posibilities with humans and there are bilions of humans etc, but with given laws also.
Don't take everyword so literal.
And don't start editing my text's like hellyp, giving different slants.
Thanks for the long explanation though, effort commended but un-neccessary.
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Post by bujin on Apr 3, 2009 17:32:24 GMT
Actually, I was just having a bit of fun. Your arguments have already been demolished by others in the thread.
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Post by blackadder on Apr 3, 2009 17:50:39 GMT
Jigsaw:
Your still saying find the proof for psychic existence before universal laws surrounding it are known.
Electricity is tested and calculated via tests etc. Then laws are created yes. But you can't test psychic abilities in the same way because you have no known method to base the tests on. If you prove laws of the universe and come up with methods of approach by using those laws attained you can begin to define what psychic ability is and possibly use it in wider variance etc.
But just getting someone to bend a spoon with mind doesn't mean they did it. It could be an anomolous action of universe if it only ever gets seen once. Also seeing it happen still doesn't prove or tell you what laws apply and what tests to use because your dealing a human and energy of humans etc magnification, electricity, chemicality geniality etc so seeing doesn't prove.
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Post by blackadder on Apr 3, 2009 18:20:19 GMT
Also you can't assume you know all the laws or that other unknown laws have not affected anything in testing of psychic abilities such as information in abient energy of previous cycle's.
Based upon the meaning of the universe.
If the universe has a purpose, it is composed with logic as we know so far. So it is not logical to think or associate un-knowing lifeforms who don't know their pupose who cover all human possibilities through evolution will not be part of a universal growth of the universe (evolvement) covering all universe possibilities etc.
Also, just because quantumn physics is not universally accepted does not mean it is wrong it just means you haven't found a law to link it with, that proves it exists etc.
You must link all laws together, or deny the other law by proving it does not exist by proving another law exists. Which has not been done for this, and so on.
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Post by asdfg on Apr 3, 2009 18:28:52 GMT
Your[ sic] still saying find the proof for psychic existence before universal laws surrounding it are known. That's exactly right. If you can observe or measure an effect then you can look for its cause. That's how science works. Starting with a conclusion (psychic ability exists) and then trying to prove it (especially with fantastical theories) is the completely wrong approach. That's an example of pseudoscience. There really are good reasons for taking the logical, systematic approach. |
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Post by asdfg on Apr 3, 2009 18:32:47 GMT
Also you can't assume you know all the laws or that other unknown laws have not affected anything in testing of psychic abilities such as information in abient energy of previous cycle's. No, I don't assume that at all. That's because I don't make the assumption that you do that the universe cycles and keeps a memory of what's gone before. There's no need for such extravagant and completely speculative theories anyway because psychic ability hasn't been shown to be real. Show it exists and then look for the cause (!) |
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Post by blackadder on Apr 3, 2009 18:39:07 GMT
That's why I said in the first place you have to prove how the universe works beforehand with an exact law not a divided assumption as standard universal theory. Nothing has been proven of the universe function as there are no tests as of yet. Some laws for electricity etc have been proven through tests but not universal activity laws or theories such as quantumn physics and string theory or similar etc. They are educated assumptions that haven't been proven but could exist. Until you prove one you cannot define the barriers of psychic ability for testing or the platform to base it on.
Scientists base most of universal studies on such theories which can eventually possibly be found to be fantastical. So you can't prove psychic first as I said.
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Post by blackadder on Apr 3, 2009 18:41:27 GMT
Sorry missed a t in can't test psychic abilities the same way. In previous 2
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Post by blackadder on Apr 3, 2009 19:05:20 GMT
Also missed not logical rather than in 6:20pm
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Post by asdfg on Apr 3, 2009 20:27:39 GMT
If we can make integrated circuits, space shuttles, communication satellites, atomic power stations, and electric toothbrushes without 'knowing how the universe works', why does it preclude testing or understanding psychic ability?
If a psychic medium can sell tickets for an event in a particular theatre, at a given place, several months in advance, starting a 8PM, with a break for coffee and biscuits and reliably bring the spirits through with that sort of precision, why can't the spirits be relied upon to turn up for a scientific test sometime?
Of course psychic claims can be tested because psychics make claims!
As with most extraordinary claims, you're just wanting to keep the explanation in the unknowable category so they can't be disproved. That's another sign of pseudoscientific thinking. i.e. always make sure your claims cannot be falsified.
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Post by blackadder on Apr 3, 2009 20:42:51 GMT
But your also relying on psychics knowing what they think psychic ability is.
You can obviously prove psychic ability exists before you prove the universe exists, but you need a scientific law (at least one) to work with (not used at present in studies etc).
There is also the fact that these things are being investigated but not a single scrap of evidence in testing has proven a law or dis-proved a law or even a very good scientific argument for or against the point of the existence of psychic ability.
There are studies revealing the delusions of psychics but not proving or dis-proving psychic ability. Because there are too many variable's to prove or dis-prove at this time.
Note I quite like your arguments as we both seem to travel forward in mynute steps or stop for a while rather than go back.
Thanks for your input.
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