If I had a child die from measles caught from someone who was deliberately un-vaccinated I'd sue for manslaughter. It's a deliberate ignoring of the scientific facts involved. Of course it's a terrible situation but trying to randomly point the finger at something that has saved thousands of lives smacks of desperation to find something or something to blame. Sorry.
The unproven autism link isn't the only reason that kids aren't being vaccinated. Many don't because of religious beliefs. I don't think you'd even find a lawyer for a suit like that.
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If I had a child die from measles caught from someone who was deliberately un-vaccinated I'd sue for manslaughter.
Oh but its ok for other peoples children to possibly be affected for life, some even die as long as your kid is ok yeah?
It's a deliberate ignoring of the scientific facts involved.
Actually there has not been 100% facts produced!
Of course it's a terrible situation
How would you know?
but trying to randomly point the finger at something that has saved thousands of lives smacks of desperation to find something or something to blame.
It is not random,try not assuming of others until you are in that situation!
Sorry.
No your not! The only reason you are saying sorry is that you know full well your words are totally self centred! Its the I'm alright jack attitude, me and mine are fine so stuff everyone else. If I am wrong then explain what you are sorry about and why?
I'm so so glad you find this humorous. Your approach has managed to anger parents from both sides of the MMR issue..that is atrocious!
There is actually a lot of concern regarding parents using or forcing inappropriate and even damaging 'treatments and cures' on their autistic children - and that includes dietary interventions (!)
There's lots of concerns regarding most things in life and we all know how science can make mistakes. A degree and diploma doesn't prevent errors. My own research is based on family genetics. Every time I had a child I was told to, for eg, eat eggs..then don't eat eggs, eat liver as a good iron based food then don't eat liver. Scientists constantly change their minds..fact!
I'm thinking of the work of Patricia Howlin, for example. She's a leading researcher in the field who's trying to do the best she can for parents in providing evidence-based options and trying to rule out the harmful claims (including silly fad diets etc.) that can end up harming the autistic children even though they are used with the best intentions.
I don't doubt Patricia Howlin's work but then someone else will have totally opposing views on what's right and wrong. They base their work a lot of the time on their own opinions.
I might email her and tell her to put her research on the back burner as it seems that parents already know better than the experts.
Yes and making light of parents worries, fears and instincts really puts you in a superior position doesn't it..not!!
Now, a rational thinker might expect that offering evidence-based information on various treatments to parents would receive a positive reaction and a willingness to have a look and assess the information.
Again I DON'T believe the MMR to be responsible but just taking one person's opinions at face value would be a dangerous thing to do. After all go to the next person and surprise surprise, they don't agree. The arrogance that does exist within the scientific community can overlook vital information sometimes. Scientists aren't infallible and half of the time can't even agree with each other. It's far more unrational to say yes because one person says so.
But, as I said, the reaction has been emotional, hostile, and pig-ignorant. This is a general response skeptics get when attempting to put forward a rational perspective. It's the response we always get when dealing with people who hold irrational beliefs.
Yes your reaction has been hostile and pig ignorant without a doubt. Single handedly you've managed to offend several parents who see the MMR issue from very different angles. Of course I don't mind being called emotional..after all parents who love their children do tend to be that way.
And the point about psychics. OK, you've missed the point (again); but I expect some of you are here because you think Acorah is a fake psychic (i.e. your skepticism is based on not believing rather than the investigative attitude that it should be) and with this particular issue, you are behaving in exactly the same manner as those who have a blind belief in psychics.
Well with this one the same can't be said for me as I'm open to evidence and facts from whoever produces it. Surely the same applies to you though because you won't yield to the possibility that the vaccine could have a part to play in all of this. Whenever you point a finger you have 3 pointing back at you so I'd be doubting your own sceptism before you doubt anyone elses. Again genetics and family history suggests to me that the MMR isn't to blame BUT nothing can be ruled out until once and for all we get the answers we seek.
You come across quite hypocritical by accusing persons of being self-centred but advocate a far more dangerous path of not vaccinating to in your mind protect your child.
I am personally disturbed that diseases that can cause so much suffering and death are making a return through ignorance and mis-information.
Oh and heres a fact that was previously ignored.
Study Shows No Connection Between Measles Vaccine And Autism
Kendra, You come across quite hypocritical by accusing persons of being self-centred but advocate a far more dangerous path of not vaccinating to in your mind protect your child.
Oh and where have I ever said at any point to not vaccinate your child? I am all for vaccinations if they are safe. But triple or quadruple ones I am very against, singular vaccinations I haven't a problem with,wary about but not a specific problem with.
I am personally disturbed that diseases that can cause so much suffering and death are making a return through ignorance and mis-information.
Me too, but this is not down to vaccinations or rather lack of vaccinations. Did you know and this is a fact! That when the cases of small pox started to deplete the medical community gave themselves a huge pat on the back and stated it was because of the introduction of the vaccine. Unfortunately for them based upon sociologists and other medical schools research and which now the medical comunity have to admit,small pox was in decline prior to the vaccination being introduced, you know why? Because the public/parents had been educated via a government drive regarding better hygiene and healthier foods.
Oh and heres a fact that was previously ignored.
Study Shows No Connection Between Measles Vaccine And Autism
Just one eeny teeny problem with that.....There is no actual 100% factual evidence provided to date inclduing this one that has not been able to be shot down in flames by an opposing biologist etc, so at this point in time..It is not a fact! Only a probability
Jigsaw, you've done nothing to argue against the fact that eating healthier is good for our children.
That is correct.
I haven't actually argued for or against anything - all I've actually been saying is that there are issues involved here and it might be a good idea to look into them from an evidence-based perspective.
The only thing I have said is that 'seeing for yourself' is not as reliable an indicator in deciding whether things are working or not as you might think.
The 'accusations' I've made, which have upset people so terribly, just aren't there! Fortunately, anyone can read the thread back and see exactly what I've written.
In fact, this thread somewhat ironically supports what I've been saying about expectation effects and 'seeing what you expect to see' and why it is such an unreliable indicator. Look back at what I've actually been saying and compare it to what people think I've been saying and it will become clear.
It is actually very simple if anyone on here can state categorically backed up with reputable data and research that has no flaws,that is accepted 100% by all parts of the medical community and specialists what the actual cause of Autism is then please add it here. Because to date the actual cause of Autism has not been proved 100%.... That means to treat children with Autism, to try and help them in some shape or form with aspects of their disorder it is all very much in the testing stages and hey guess what people, that means the testing grounds are within the homes of these kids,within the schools, within the families of these children. None of us...NONE OF US, can 100% state they have the answer or that they have found a link that 100% proves their opinion etc,because it has never 100% been proven. But at least us parents and other specialists out there can admit it is a work in progress and just try our best with the advice from our GPs and plain common sense of how until a real cause is 100% identified , how we can best help our kids. All you keyboard warriors who have absolutely no real experience or true specialised qualifications to back yourself up,stating this and that,and how awful parents are to cut out the crap from our kids diets and only feed them fresh food, my god how awful we are. Also regarding vaccines,how the f*ck do any of you who haven't witnessed the changes for yourself,or who haven't buried a child directly after them being immunised , who haven't consulted for years and years directly with specialists(when I say specialists I mean the kind that are actually qualified and who dint rely on their abilities to scan the web or have partaken in one frigging module in a general psychology degree) I am asking you....How well do you really know this subject?
Kendra, you're the biggest offender when it comes to misrepresenting what people say, responding emotionally, responding with insults, and making extremely poor arguments.
There is a lot more known about autism than you are aware of (clearly) and my position was that I would post the papers of the people who are the experts in the field.
That's what I've been saying: there is a lot of proper scientific evidence out there and it would be of benefit for people to look at it - especially if it's of direct use to them.
That would be a far more productive approach to understanding the issue than trying to dismiss everyone with personal insults just because they don't agree with your (uninformed) position.
Interesting how you make yourself out to be some kind of victim yet at the same time come across as just arrogant and rude.
As for my experience, no I do not have exact life experience with this issue but have a very strong educational and work background in critical evaluation. At the same time I have a vested interest in this debate as my girlfriend is pregnant with her first child. I wish to make the correct decisions with regards to vaccination.
My appreciation of this issue is that the link relating to autism and MMR (what this thread was originally about) is nothing but hysteria, mis-information and lies.
You state that you have not advocated non-vaccination yet will argue against MMR. It is the same thing. This scaremongering will harm children.
Did you know and this is a fact! That when the cases of small pox started to deplete the medical community gave themselves a huge pat on the back and stated it was because of the introduction of the vaccine. Unfortunately for them based upon sociologists and other medical schools research and which now the medical comunity have to admit,small pox was in decline prior to the vaccination being introduced, you know why? Because the public/parents had been educated via a government drive regarding better hygiene and healthier foods.
Hmm really? So globally hygiene and foods standards are to a sufficient standard to halt the growth and make smallpox cases decline?
I do not need to be keyboard warrior to realise this is nonsense. Even if this is the case in the West, without vaccination the disease would still be endemic in Africa, Asia etc.
Did you know and this is a fact! That when the cases of small pox started to deplete the medical community gave themselves a huge pat on the back and stated it was because of the introduction of the vaccine. Unfortunately for them based upon sociologists and other medical schools research and which now the medical comunity have to admit,small pox was in decline prior to the vaccination being introduced, you know why? Because the public/parents had been educated via a government drive regarding better hygiene and healthier foods.
Hmm really? So globally hygiene and foods standards are to a sufficient standard to halt the growth and make smallpox cases decline?
I never said Globally, I was refering to Britain hence The Goverment rather than Goverments...Sweetie if you disagree with this then I suggest you contact the education authority for England and Wales as this is being taught in A Level Sociology...FACT!
There is a lot more known about autism than you are aware of (clearly)
Jigsaw,I want you to tell me exactly what I know and dont know about Autism.Every single detail,data,research,specialist I have seen and so on.....Come on big boy you can do that cant you? I mean to state that clearly there is more about autism than I am aware.. lay your proof down Jigsaw if you cant put up then shut up!
and my position was that I would post the papers of the people who are the experts in the field.
Yet those papers as with all research in this subject so far has also been disproved by others within the field, so what are you baseing your argument on again? Regarding your position,it is very clear by your posts what your intent was Jigsaw and you certainly got the reaction you wanted!
That's what I've been saying: there is a lot of proper scientific evidence out there and it would be of benefit for people to look at it - especially if it's of direct use to them.
Indeed proper scientific research and data. Evidential would suggest it has been proved 100%, it has not!
That would be a far more productive approach to understanding the issue than trying to dismiss everyone with personal insults just because they don't agree with your (uninformed) position.
The only person I have insulted here (and it was intentional) was you Jigsaw, your posts on this subject just bring out the best in me, what can I say ;D Bythe way an insult can only have a reaction when it hits at some personal level normally on an emotional one. A reaction from someone who is not personally affected by a subject but a name being called etc ,their reaction to feeling insulted is normaly born because the insult has a possibility of truth. Action=reaction,come on Jigsaw you know that one
Interesting how you make yourself out to be some kind of victim yet at the same time come across as just arrogant and rude.
Never at any time have I made myself out to be victim,arrogant oh indeed I can be...Rude? Only went I want to be!
As for my experience, no I do not have exact life experience with this issue but have a very strong educational and work background in critical evaluation.
Well that is me swayed straight away, be ready to recieve an influx of pms from me with questions you are so obviously able to answer in regards to my sons day to day problems and his disorder in general
At the same time I have a vested interest in this debate as my girlfriend is pregnant with her first child. I wish to make the correct decisions with regards to vaccination.
You've already decided havent you, so what decision are you making?
My appreciation of this issue is that the link relating to autism and MMR (what this thread was originally about) is nothing but hysteria, mis-information and lies.
And you base that statement upon what exactly?
You state that you have not advocated non-vaccination yet will argue against MMR. It is the same thing. This scaremongering will harm children.
No sweetie,not the same thing. MMR = 3 in 1 virus , Single vaccine=1 virus..HUGE difference
By the way, by your response are you admitting to being a keyboard warrior?
My appreciation of this issue is that the link relating to autism and MMR (what this thread was originally about) is nothing but hysteria, mis-information and lies.
I suppose there is an eliment of hysteria, but you would feel the same if your child has an adverse reaction to MMR and then becomes autistic. At the same time the debate started in the late 80's and Dr Wakefields studies it was all slotting into place, the government backed families at first for their financial support into getting claims for vaccine damages from Smith Kline Beechams, now the government have made those families in despair for they took away the funding, the only winners so far were the Solicitors who were paid for studies and legal work. Each family were initially given £25,000 for legal work then the government pulled the plugs
You state that you have not advocated non-vaccination yet will argue against MMR. It is the same thing. This scaremongering will
It was not a case of parents not wanting to have their children vaccinated it was the case of was the vaccine safe, and in 1989-1991 the vaccines were not safe hence why the parents declined for their children to have the MMR and vaccine clinic popped up everywhere to give the children single vaccines.
I never said Globally, I was refering to Britain hence The Goverment rather than Goverments...Sweetie if you disagree with this then I suggest you contact the education authority for England and Wales as this is being taught in A Level Sociology...FACT!
I do not disagree with your fact (although according to your logic this is surely not 100% proven either). My point is what relevance does your reference to the smallpox vaccine have. It is certainly not relevant to this thread. Is your inference that it was not necessary? The smallpox vaccine was so successful that it resulted in the question of whether to purposefully destroy a lifeform.
Well that is me swayed straight away, be ready to recieve an influx of pms from me with questions you are so obviously able to answer in regards to my sons day to day problems and his disorder in general
My point is I have taken a rational viewpoint after speaking to my GP and reading the appropriate material on MMR. I am not talking about autism. I suppose I could be making a mistake and perhaps should listen to you what with your 'ology and all.
You've already decided havent you, so what decision are you making?
Well perhaps you can enlighten me with something more than 2+2=9 and repeating spurious websites.
And you base that statement upon what exactly?
Some of the material speaking out against vaccinations and MMR online is not just ignorant but down right dangerous and yet here it is being rehashed on this website of all places!
No sweetie,not the same thing. MMR = 3 in 1 virus , Single vaccine=1 virus..HUGE difference
You do not get do you? Just because you only speak out against MMR does not lessen the impact this has. It is persons like yourself that are sowing confusion in parents minds which is a danger.
By the way, by your response are you admitting to being a keyboard warrior?
I think you have demonstrated admirably you own qualities in this.
I would have thought the bit about the medical profession patting themselves on the back for the decline would have made it obvious really
I believe to make an informed choice you have to weigh up all information and options available to you as a parent. Certainly ask your GP about vaccinations,certainly look into all the health benefits that come with the little jabs,just dont be ignorant to the negative affects also. NO ONE can tell you as a parent whatyou must or must not do regarding immunising your child,just dont go in blinkerd. Are there other alternatives to the all in ones,is there availablity in your area for singular vaccines,what affects both positive and negative will each vaccine have, or could possibly have on your child.
My point is I have taken a rational viewpoint after speaking to my GP and reading the appropriate material on MMR.
Good for you,as should all responsible parents should.
I am not talking about autism. I suppose I could be making a mistake and perhaps should listen to you what with your 'ology and all.
You know, I truly hope to god that you never will be in the position that I and millions of parents have to face on a daily basis and for the rest of our lives...Enjoy daydreaming of what your son or daughter may become,who they may marry, what will be there career,how you will read a story to them at bedtime,share all the world knowledge you have with them,relishing the day they he or she will call you Daddy. Enjoy it and appreciate it,because millions of parents around the world have been in the same position that you are in now only for no known cause for that to be taken from us... You think our questioning and continual search for the truth is for us? Our kids already have the disorder and other disabilities, an answer to what has happened to our kids and why we have a right to know,but who do you think it will really benefit in the long run when hopefully the answer is found rather than just being accepted as one of those things that happen. Do you think it will benefit us in the long run or soon to be parents like yourself?
Well perhaps you can enlighten me with something more than 2+2=9 and repeating spurious websites
I haven't typed tons of websites on here,so get your facts straight first mate!
Some of the material speaking out against vaccinations and MMR online is not just ignorant but down right dangerous and yet here it is being rehashed on this website of all places
should we just whisper about it in backrooms would that suit you better?
You do not get do you? Just because you only speak out against MMR does not lessen the impact this has. It is persons like yourself that are sowing confusion in parents minds which is a danger.
How the hell am I sowing any confusion into anything or anyone,it is your choice what you do,it is your choice to decide against or for what you have read/heard/seen.
Should children be vaccinated,I personally agree there is a need,but I am for single vaccines not the all in ones. There is a risk to forcing/allowing any chemical/virus into a body. OK put it this way,going by what my health visitor told me when I shared my concerns with her regarding the MMR,she told me that if I was to be a responsible parent I should allow my son the vaccination. And that it was a million to one chance that anything could go wrong or the vaccine could affect my son. So there ya go,my kid is the million to one chance , the other billions of children are safe as houses out there as our kids are the million to one chances of anything going wrong or them being affected in anyway by the vaccines.
Seriously,do what you feel is best to do. I do get it? You are scared that something could go wrong/affect the most precious thing in your entire life, I felt exactly the same,the majority feel exactly the same as you do,so yes we get it.The only difference is we know what it is like for the most precious life in our lives to be affected by something,but we just dont know the hell what!
I think you have demonstrated admirably you own qualities in this.
Nah, trust me you'll know when I am in keyboard warrior mode Besides nothing I have said on here I wouldn't have a problem saying to your face or anyone elses, and there are a couple of people on here who know me away from this screen,they can verify this. I dont need a screen to state my opinion or stand up for something I believe in or am against.
I'm still not quite understanding this part of your discussion.
Eating well is good for everyone at any time, and that's been proven again and again. Those are what my posts are about. As far as any evidence-based perspectives on taking certain chemicals or glutens out of the diets for people with autism, there are scientific studies going on and I've posted the links. They are so far favorable to what I've seen with my own child.
I've always agreed that the MMR scare, especially when using information on a vaccine from 1991, isn't reliable at all. Libbi has posted several times that she has seen genetic information from her children's ancestors that indicate a possible link, and there are studies on that include this. Kendra has stated repeatedly she does not believe the hysteria of autism causing vaccines, too.
The discussion went from autism being caused by vaccines to diet helping the symptoms. If you're still arguing the MMR part, then I think we're all in agreement. If you're arguing the diet bit, then that's just silly. Everyone should eat healthy regardless of autism, yet you keep coming back saying we need to wait on evidence. For what? That it relieves symptoms of ADHD and autism or that it's a good, general practice?
As far as my experience in seeing for myself, it is a damn good indicator for me and my son. You do not see his mood swings when he gets into something he shouldn't. His doctors have, his teachers have, and his family has and that is good enough for me. I await the studies and their results, but I see no reason to go back to eating chemical laden foods when I see the difference in my son and I feel the difference in my own body.
Eating fresh foods isn't something that really needs any extra studies done, imho, and there is zero harm in doing so. The worst case scenario would be...well, can't think of one there. Best case is that the children and the parents get some relief. Win/win.
And to be clear, I am NOT talking about a drastic diet. I'm talking about cutting out the majority of pre-processed foods and going back to fresh veggies, fruits, and if available organic meats. Our dinner last night was homemade tacos and enchaladas, breakfast for my son this morning was waffles, and his lunch was a PBJ. Is that so radical that you need to argue that more studies need to be done?
Jigsaw, you've done nothing to argue against the fact that eating healthier is good for our children.
That is correct.
I haven't actually argued for or against anything - all I've actually been saying is that there are issues involved here and it might be a good idea to look into them from an evidence-based perspective.
The only thing I have said is that 'seeing for yourself' is not as reliable an indicator in deciding whether things are working or not as you might think.
The 'accusations' I've made, which have upset people so terribly, just aren't there! Fortunately, anyone can read the thread back and see exactly what I've written.
In fact, this thread somewhat ironically supports what I've been saying about expectation effects and 'seeing what you expect to see' and why it is such an unreliable indicator. Look back at what I've actually been saying and compare it to what people think I've been saying and it will become clear.
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I would have thought the bit about the medical profession patting themselves on the back for the decline would have made it obvious really
I should blimmin well hope they got a pat on the back. Smallpox eradication should be lauded as an example of WHO combating an awful disease that caused so much death, blindness and disfigurement.