For years now we have watched ghost hunters use emf meters and thermal imaging cameras and record evps on digital recorders . Now humans are very clever at using available tools to research things but what is there really out there to test whether ghosts exist. I dont want a thread that is just "they dont exist" I want to know what technology people think we really need to prove/disprove once and for all. If ghosts are energy,what sort of energy and how do you measure it? if ghosts speak on digital recorders what technology is there to be sure you arent picking up random transmissions from locally and how do ghosts register on thermal imaging cameras if they have no mass and the theory is they use human energy to manifest? ghosts are supposed to create cold spots but show up hot on these images, i dont understand this. Has anyone looked in detail at this sort of equipment and done a study on the logic its based on? please dont hijack this thread, I genuinely want to know about this subject.
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What we see on tv shows is true misrepresentation of paranormal equipment. They make it sound hi-tech and scientific and people fall for it as the truth.
Well, I'm not really into ghosts as a phenomenon but I am interested in psychology and how such things as perceptual errors, cognitive biases, etc., feed into and reinforce belief systems.
I think that a lot of not only belief in, but research into, things like ghosts is based very much on humans' (very error-prone) perception. EVP is a good example. Humans can easily convince themselves that they're hearing messages in the noise because we're 'programmed' to pattern seek and find meaning whenever we can.
However, it would be interesting to know whether (and I really don't know) how the latest versions of voice recognition technology would react to EVP recordings. Would it recognise the same phrases (which would be much more diagnostic than single words) that humans do - and would the same piece of data (or noise!) reveal 'messages' in different languages?
If voice recognition technology were sensitive enough to extract words from very low signal-to-noise recordings then it could be a useful way of removing human biases from data interpretation with recorded information.
But that's me trying to apply some scientific thinking to an area that I have no interest in. Perhaps it's already being done?
As for just simply using equipment: I suspect that most who use the likes of EMF meters have no real idea of what they're measuring; therefore, no idea as to how to interpret the data meaningfully.
What we see on tv shows is true misrepresentation of paranormal equipment. They make it sound hi-tech and scientific and people fall for it as the truth.
Thank you Hayley that has answered a lot of my questions, I still wonder if any scientific study has been done on the types of energy that spirits are supposed to give off.
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However, it would be interesting to know whether (and I really don't know) how the latest versions of voice recognition technology would react to EVP recordings. Would it recognise the same phrases (which would be much more diagnostic than single words) that humans do - and would the same piece of data (or noise!) reveal 'messages' in different languages?
I don't think we even need to go there yet. Let's have some experimentation with adequate soundproofing and radio wave shielding. I have a strong feeling all we'll be recording is silence.
www.ripodcast.co.uk - Righteous Indignation podcast...talking skeptically about the supernatural. And crayfish.
A very good point, I was very skeptical of infrasound a while ago but now accept I was wrong and it is a very valid pointer to many so called hauntings, so yes there is evidence to support your suggestion,but then the question is,can you block infra sound too?
Has anyone done a test to see if the recordings of evp's are at a different frequency to normal voice recordings? this is the sort of work that we need to do to explain these phenomana and not just automatically jump to the conlusion that a recording has picked up a radio signal from outside. I am a skeptical believer,alot more skeptical than I used to be but I still want to learn more about hauntings. The debate should no longer be yes they do,no they dont,it should be what technology can we use to explain such phenomona.
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Ah, my comment about infrasound was more in relation to EVP. Believers come out with all sorts of claims about EVP frequencies....some say ghost voices are higher frequencies, others that they are lower. All just make it up as they go along, desperately trying to cling to something.
I remain very skeptical as of the influence of infrasound in haunting phenomena when applied to visual effects. I think there is a thread somewhere on this board in regard to Steve Parsons' research into it.
All ghost hunting equipment is pretty worthless and its use is almost exclusively assumptive. So much time has been invested in attempting to record apparitions on camcorder and cctv yet still nothing has been produced that cannot be readily explained. I await someone proving me wrong (& I'll be the first to accept it) but until then something seems very obvious - these things don't appear on film yet people see them. Occam's Razor seems to dictate why this is the case!
Additionally, the concept of what is a ghost has drastically changed. It mainly used to be a monk and headless horseman and the ilk, but now it's a coldspot, a clicking sound, light or something seen out of the corner of the eye. This seemed to change with the advent of pap ghost hunting shows.
www.ripodcast.co.uk - Righteous Indignation podcast...talking skeptically about the supernatural. And crayfish.
Good points Trystan, I am not convinced by evp's, and some of the claims people make about what is said on them are laughable. I just dont understand how you can hear it on play back but not at the time so that is why I wonder about the frequency arguement. As for knocks etc on some of these ghost shows its quite obviously someone round the corner tapping as I know most paranormal groups do not have the amount of phenonoma these shows have.In fact usually nothing happens on such investigations and it may take several visits to a location to record anything unusual at all.
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The thing to remember with most recording devices is that they contain something called the auto gain circuit. This tries to ensure a consistent volume level. So if you're recording in a noisy environment it lessens the gain. Record in a quiet environment and the gain is upped - little background noises such as clicks and scrapes sound a lot louder than they are.
www.ripodcast.co.uk - Righteous Indignation podcast...talking skeptically about the supernatural. And crayfish.
For years now we have watched ghost hunters use emf meters and thermal imaging cameras and record evps on digital recorders . Now humans are very clever at using available tools to research things but what is there really out there to test whether ghosts exist.
Ghost hunters use this equipment because they do not understand what the hell they are doing. It makes them feel like they are actually doing something, and by waving Maplins stock around empty buildings, they feel they are somehow contributing to the accumulated knowlege of mankind. Their intentions are usually good, but fuelled by hope, belief and ignorance of basic physics.
But in short, there is no technology available that has been successfully used to detect a ghost.
I dont want a thread that is just "they dont exist" I want to know what technology people think we really need to prove/disprove once and for all.
I cannot emphatically state that ghosts do not exist, but then again, I see no reason how they could exist. I suspect MRI imaging might help, ghosts seem to be a purely subjective experience. Internal processes can be mapped using the appropriate equipment.
If ghosts are energy,what sort of energy and how do you measure it?
Well taken as a purely philisophical question, ghosts cannot be any known form of energy. This is a common misconception based upon the lack of understanding to what the law of conservation of energy actually means. The reason people assume ghosts are energy is this part. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be transformed from one state to another.
They understand this to mean that upon death, the "life force" flees the body, to assume a new form of "semi/sentient existence" (ghost). This is not true, as the energies of the body are simply transferred to different states. Thermal, chemical, kinetic etc etc.
if ghosts speak on digital recorders what technology is there to be sure you arent picking up random transmissions from locally
Faraday cages. You can make your own using the mesh from the shielding of old microwave ovens.
and how do ghosts register on thermal imaging cameras if they have no mass
They cannot. People claiming otherwise need to refer to the user manual of the thermal capturing device, and learn some basic physics.
and the theory is they use human energy to manifest?
They cannot, this would be a measurable effect. It is simply used as an excuse by the ignorant to make the magic possible.
ghosts are supposed to create cold spots but show up hot on these images, i dont understand this.
The idea is they consume thermal energy to suppliment their own as a "power boost" to appear, or move an object or interact with our enviroment. This is based upon the misinterpretation of the Laws of thermodynamics.
Has anyone looked in detail at this sort of equipment and done a study on the logic its based on? please dont hijack this thread, I genuinely want to know about this subject.
The logical reasons behind all the equipment used by ghost hunters is based upon the end users ignorance. The logic is unfortunately most illogical. Everytime I see a new piece of equipment being used to allegedly detect ghosts, I reasearch what the purpose of this equipment is. So far, they appear to use anything (including dowsing rods and pendulums).
I was very skeptical of infrasound a while ago but now accept I was wrong and it is a very valid pointer to many so called hauntings
Wrong? Infrasound has nothing to do with the paranormal. The alleged accumulative effects of infrasound upon the human body are questionable. Feelings of unease might be theoretically possible (given it is a low rumble), but the visual anomalies cannot be replicated.
the question is,can you block infra sound too?
Yes. There are two methods you can use. Frequency baffles (like a soundproofed booth) or playing the exact same frequency back at the original sound (which cancels them both out).
Has anyone done a test to see if the recordings of evp's are at a different frequency to normal voice recordings?
The sounds that people interpret to be E.V.P. can be in any frequency that the recording device can capture. Depending on the cost of the device, you can have a short or wide range possible. Human vocals usually fall within a specific range or frequencies.
this is the sort of work that we need to do to explain these phenomana and not just automatically jump to the conlusion that a recording has picked up a radio signal from outside.
Well, few sceptical people will automatically jump to that conclusion tbh (bias doesnt help). That is only a single reasonable option. People who have done a little research unencumbered by personal investment, or religious/spiritual belief will have a whole range of possible answers. For example:
Auto gain circuit Noise gates signal interception/reception Aural apophenia (Mondegreens)
I am a skeptical believer,alot more skeptical than I used to be but I still want to learn more about hauntings. The debate should no longer be yes they do,no they dont,it should be what technology can we use to explain such phenomona.
Before a suitable technology can be developed to detect ghosts, a ghost must be defined logically, and a valid theory for their existence must be formulated and tested.
Anymore questions? I'd be glad to assist if I can.
Post by isthisnametaken on Feb 7, 2010 2:55:15 GMT
If ghosts do exist, but we do not know what gives them the ability to do so, how can we be sure that any piece of equipment will help us find the truth?
This of course also means that when a certain bit of equipment gives results, readings etc, nobody can say for certain that these are not paranormal. To do so would require knowing what makes a ghost a ghost (if they exist). For example: If an EMF meter gives a reading in a place where none should have been obtained and all known possibilities have been honestly investigated and discounted then we have an anomaly. Does it mean something paranormal has occurred? Maybe, maybe not. But it would leave the question open.
Therefore we have a circular argument and the truth remains elusive.
If ghosts do exist, but we do not know what gives them the ability to do so, how can we be sure that any piece of equipment will help us find the truth?
This of course also means that when a certain bit of equipment gives results, readings etc, nobody can say for certain that these are not paranormal.
Well, we have no reason to say that they are. When an EMF meter gives a reading we know what is causing the reading. When a thermometer gives a reading we know what is causing it. The same for most meters that people use.
These meters are designed to measure certain things and that's what they measure. To say that a reading is paranormal in nature is, in my opinion jumping to a conclusion that can't be justified.
To do so would require knowing what makes a ghost a ghost (if they exist). For example: If an EMF meter gives a reading in a place where none should have been obtained and all known possibilities have been honestly investigated and discounted then we have an anomaly.
Magnetic fields are physical fields produced by electrically charged objects. The electric field is produced by stationary charges and the magnetic field by moving charges – or currents. Most of the time a reading from and EMF meter can be explained because of such causes nearby.
Also, you have to take into consideration the geomagnetic field that slowly fluctuates slightly over time. I would imagine it would be impossible to rule out all of these possibilities and be left with a reading from an EMF meter that has no apparent source.
Does it mean something paranormal has occurred? Maybe, maybe not. But it would leave the question open.
Therefore we have a circular argument and the truth remains elusive.
I'm afraid I don't agree with this. Teams use equipment and 9/10 they use the equipment for flawed reasons and reach silly conclusions because of the misinformation they hold about what they are doing. If anything I think peopl who use EMF meters or similar gadgets just create more questions for themselves and make things more complicated than they need to be. The "truth" doesn't remain elusive at all if you don't make it elusive.
Post by isthisnametaken on Feb 7, 2010 13:38:21 GMT
Quote from Jon Donni, If a ghost can appear then I am sure one of those dead scientists with the universes knowledge available to them could find a way.
It would be nice. But then I don't know what knowledge, if any, a dead scientist would have available to them ;D
Hiya Hayley, while I see your reasoning to a very large degree and am open to what you say I must counter some of what you say in reply to me.
I agree that "When an EMF meter gives a reading we know what is causing the reading. When a thermometer gives a reading we know what is causing it. The same for most meters that people use." But as expanded upon in my second paragraph that IF ghosts do exist unless we know what causes them or makes them be, then all kinds of readings MAY, without other honestly found explanation, point to the existence of them. May, that is all I am saying, may.
I also agree with this "Teams use equipment and 9/10 they use the equipment for flawed reasons and reach silly conclusions because of the misinformation they hold about what they are doing. If anything I think peopl who use EMF meters or similar gadgets just create more questions for themselves and make things more complicated than they need to be." Whether it's 9/10, I have no idea, but basically, yes I agree. Quote: "The "truth" doesn't remain elusive at all if you don't make it elusive." We can make it much harder to find the truth. But unless we discover certain 'keys' then the truth remains elusive. There is much about this world alone that we do not have the whole truth about.
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Feb 7, 2010 14:21:02 GMT
It would be nice. But then I don't know what knowledge, if any, a dead scientist would have available to them
Well any dead scientist living on in the afterlfie would have first hand experience of testing the nature of their own existance. Plus since there is no time in th afterlife they would not be hampered by any such time restrictions. The moment they cross over they would have an eternity of knowledge at their disposal.
Yet all they can muster is silly parlour tricks in dark rooms? come off it
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
But as expanded upon in my second paragraph that IF ghosts do exist unless we know what causes them or makes them be, then all kinds of readings MAY, without other honestly found explanation, point to the existence of them. May, that is all I am saying, may.
I think that's just speculation though. Unless you have evidence to suggest this then it's just another idea. As is my idea that people aren't haunted by ghosts, but, monkeys with invisibility cloaks.
A few more questions if I may, firstly with regard to most haunted, I know the doubts about the honesty of this programme and am not here to discuss that but the show did raise a question that I need answering. They have made a big play of analysing the strange high pitch sounds they caught at RAF West Raynham and apparently when studied these sounds dont show any reverb whereas other noises such as human voices recorded at the same time do, what does this mean? is this just a common phenomona and lots of noises dont have reverb or is this unusual?and what relevance if any does thsi have to paranormal investigation? Next, on a recent episode of ghost hunters they introduced geophones to test the knocking noises they were experiencing,now the interesting thing was the the sound of footsteps was clearly heard and yet the geophones didnt register it,but the slightest movement from of the investigators would set them off. What are peoples opinions and scientific explanations of this? And for this lets assume as previously stated on this site that Jason and Grant are honest people who dont fake,even though others around them might. Going back to infra sound, Bob,you say that I am wrong in this being a pointer to hauntings,I was using the term "hauntings" to include the feeling of being watched etc and not "ooh look theres king henry the 8th" but you are indicating that infrasound just has the same effect as electro magnetic fields can have on the human body or am I misunderstanding you? Finally,you used a number of technical terms about evps, noise gates etc,can you explain these please in a fairly non techie way. Thank you
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And an additional point, did anyone see this weeks episode of ghost adventures where they introduced a machine that is a video camera,with infra red capability and a doohicky that has all the words in the english language in it,these words are then supposedly displayed on screen when a "ghost" interacts with it. Has anyone heard of such technology and how does a spanish ghost from the 1500's understand English?
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;D