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Post by asdfg on Feb 22, 2010 14:35:42 GMT
One chap was in asystole (flatline) requiring fibrillation and a assortment of medication. He survived with the extraordinary tale to tell us of his experiences in watching us resuscitate him Which is a pretty much bog standard account of an OBE. The question is not whether these things occur (they do), but what they mean. What conclusions can we draw, or what further questions do we need to ask, for example.
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Post by oh2cu on Feb 23, 2010 6:29:48 GMT
Antmania, I have had clients who have described NDE experience s when being resuscitated, some of which I have been present in. Clients? Yes Are you a medical doctor? YesCitations? Client experience only, I have not conducted research in this area. Not all clients have any memory of an experience, often will discuss with medical staff about the time missing from their lives. I am sure some choose to keep their experiences quiet for their own reasons. And how was this example determined to not be imagination, but fact? Good question Bob - Imagination how do we really know what it is? How does one measure fully functioning members of society - their perception on reality and experiences on what is occurring in the world around them. Knowing that each experience that will never be the exactly the same as the other.
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Post by oh2cu on Feb 23, 2010 7:19:23 GMT
One chap was in asystole (flatline) requiring fibrillation and a assortment of medication. He survived with the extraordinary tale to tell us of his experiences in watching us resuscitate him Which is a pretty much bog standard account of an OBE. The question is not whether these things occur (they do), but what they mean. What conclusions can we draw, or what further questions do we need to ask, for example. That people under certain life-threatening circumstances, such as a cardiac arrest, can have certain extraordinary experiences and these experiences can deeply influence their view of life. If such an experience changes a persons life in a positive way then this is purely a great outcome.
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Post by asdfg on Feb 23, 2010 11:51:44 GMT
That people under certain life-threatening circumstances, such as a cardiac arrest, can have certain extraordinary experiences and these experiences can deeply influence their view of life. If such an experience changes a persons life in a positive way then this is purely a great outcome. Exactly the same thing happens to many people who experience Alien Abductions: they often see life much more positively etc. What does this say about the reality of alien abductions though? We all know that OBEs occur - it's what they're telling us that's important.
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Post by lovelyyoungman on Feb 24, 2010 0:11:14 GMT
There's a hypothesis that Dimethyltryptamine (a hallucinongen present in the brain) is released during the dying process and causes NDEs. Its certainly a plausible hypothesis considering the similarity between descriptions of NDEs and descriptions of psychedelic experiences.
Unfortunately the only research I can find is by a man called Dr Rick Strassman who seems more concerned with the "spiritual" element of halluncinogens rather than the possible explantions DMT could provide for NDEs.
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Post by oh2cu on Feb 24, 2010 8:05:22 GMT
That people under certain life-threatening circumstances, such as a cardiac arrest, can have certain extraordinary experiences and these experiences can deeply influence their view of life. If such an experience changes a persons life in a positive way then this is purely a great outcome. Exactly the same thing happens to many people who experience Alien Abductions: they often see life much more positively etc. What does this say about the reality of alien abductions though? Reading some articles today indicate that majority of people who believe they have been subject to "Alien Abductions" has not positively affected their lives. Again I noted that, UFO’s - evidently documented by airport radar, NASA, pilots (both military/commercial and civilian) and mass. The way I see it, we are one very small planet amongst billions of other planets, it would be rather tunnelled vision and naive to believe earth is the only place where there is life in some form. Through my work, I see amazing feats of survival against all odds and medical intervention. It is solely based on the strength of the human will to survive through extraordinary events. What you learn, it that not all in life is black and white. That there is more to the human existence than genetic make-up, chemicals and so forth. We all know that OBEs occur - it's what they're telling us that's important. Can you explain further the last part of your sentence please, it is rather ambiguous.
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Post by Cassus on Feb 24, 2010 8:37:21 GMT
It would also be a mistake to assume that:
Intelligent life is anything more than very rare (on planets that support life)
Alien civilisations are interested in contacting us
Instellar travel is physically possible (the energies involved are absolutely frightening)
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Post by asdfg on Feb 24, 2010 11:33:57 GMT
Reading some articles today indicate that majority of people who believe they have been subject to "Alien Abductions" has not positively affected their lives. Again I noted that, UFO’s - evidently documented by airport radar, NASA, pilots (both military/commercial and civilian) and mass. The way I see it, we are one very small planet amongst billions of other planets, it would be rather tunnelled vision and naive to believe earth is the only place where there is life in some form. What does the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe have to do with Alien Abduction Experiences (AAEs)? Through my work, I see amazing feats of survival against all odds and medical intervention. It is solely based on the strength of the human will to survive through extraordinary events. What you learn, it that not all in life is black and white. That there is more to the human existence than genetic make-up, chemicals and so forth. You mean the soul or spirit? Can you explain further the last part of your sentence please, it is rather ambiguous. Do OBEs support the idea that mind is separate from body or are they simply produced in the brain? If you have such an interest in this area, I wouldn't have thought a question like that would need to be spelled out for you.
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Post by oh2cu on Feb 25, 2010 10:44:38 GMT
What does the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe have to do with Alien Abduction Experiences (AAEs)? To jog your memory, the Alien Abduction Experiences was brought up by yourself. I was merely linking your questions into my answer. Do OBEs support the idea that mind is separate from body or are they simply produced in the brain? As I said before I have not conducted research in this area (NDE/OBE) and read objectively the research conducted by various groups. We know which part of the brain comes to life when we choose to do something. We now about the 'electrics' and various parts of the brain and their names - we all know the words neurons and synapses. We have no concept how the neurons pass messages amongst each other, other than it is done "electrically" even perhaps chemically/hormone aided. The communication system of the brain is so complex that it is still not clearly defined "how" this happens. We agree that when we are awake we are conscious. But does that make us unconscious when we are asleep? So what defines a person who is in a comatose state or even deceased? Mental illness is dismissed as an affliction of some 'other' people. They are the oddballs of society. Or is it that they live in a different reality that differs to those living around them that consider themselves sane? Of course the medical model that I have trained in and work with says otherwise. So what do we really know about the brain? Very little as it turns out. Familial connections and compassion stems from a collection of emotions. Human attachment to other human beings, without compassion; co-operation will not occur. Lack of co-operation from each other we become defenceless – decreasing our survival. In dangerous situations, we feel fear and run or stand our ground and fight. We learn that quickly to avoid a situation to avoid pain. These basic instincts ensure that we survive. Our instincts are there for a reason. The purpose is to benefit the survival of the species (human in this case). Why do we have the capacity to experience the extreme ecstasy over smell and taste of food, a section of music, over physical contact? There is no direct survival benefit for feelings like the pure ecstasy that a man, woman and child feels related to the senses and emotions. The possibility that NDE/OBE are a result of physiological, psychological factors, drug-induced, naturally occurring hallucinations or the Sylvian fissure. Then again despite all the research conducted there is still an element of uncertainty leading to further questions and confusion. I feel there is more to this world that we can not fully understand, even with the use of the rational mind, I guess it is no different to understanding the complex workings of the brain. Also NDE/OBE are a universal phenomenon and is steeped in to the history of man. Unless as individuals we have our own NDE, then speculation on the what, why and how's surrounding NDE will remain speculation - divided between different levels of personal belief and science. If you have such an interest in this area, I wouldn't have thought a question like that would need to be spelled out for you. I asked if you could explain further as to what exactly you where asking because the question was not clear nor to the point.
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Post by lovelyyoungman on Feb 25, 2010 13:51:58 GMT
I won't respond for Jigsaw as he is old enough to speak for himself, but I couldn't help responding to your points about mental illness. As someone who works in psychiatry I come across these ill thought out pseudo-philosophical statements all the time and they've become something of a pet hate of mine. Mental illness is dismissed as an affliction of some 'other' people. Yes, you're right, people want to believe that all types of suffering happen to other people. Their baby won't be born with only one lung, they won't get paralysed in a car crash etc. Its a natural human response to suffering to pretend it always happens to someone else, but it isn't something that is specific to mental illness. Unless you simply mean that they are stigmatised by their mental illness, in which case that makes your next statement seem a little "odd". Every single human being lives in a different reality that differs to those living around them. We all bring our own experiences, beliefs, values, preconceptions etc to every situation we find ourselves in. Its only when that "reality" is distorted to the extent that the person experiencing it is suffering that we call it mental illness. No, it doesn't and I worry for someone whose "trained and worked" in it who thinks that it does. Of couse mental health professionals take into account that every single person is different, otherwise every atheist psychiatrist would be giving anti-psychotic medication to every religous person they met and vice versa. The psychiatric system is not there to control people's beliefs or behaviours (i.e. enforce a common "reality") unless they are directly linked to a diagnosed and treatable mental illness. Even then it is only if those behaviours are causing harm or potential risk to themselves or someone else, that they would become involved in the mental health system. The Mental Health Act 2007 exists in large part to ensure that this is the case.
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Post by blackadder on Mar 14, 2010 1:39:48 GMT
What I meant by pain is pain and emotion is emotion is that emotion is a thing that humans dictate what they are saying that happy is happy and angry is angry etc. Giving a percwption as a human that certain things have rules as a life form which is not true as lifes morality is not existant asd we create it.
It is chemical and calculateable, as is all emotion and pain etc of a human.
Therefore all of human experiences are calculateable and inevitably mute as they can be foreseen. Yes/no?
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Post by morganp on Mar 14, 2010 9:03:13 GMT
Therefore all of human experiences are calculateable and inevitably mute as they can be foreseen. Yes/no? I'd answer it if I understood it Blackadder. morganp
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Post by Ma'amJo on Mar 14, 2010 21:49:43 GMT
Blackadder I know you get frustrated that we can't grasp what you're getting at but it's exactly that - we CAN'T grasp what you're getting at! People would love to respond to your posts but your sentences are extremely odd to say the least.
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Post by tomroberts on Mar 14, 2010 23:06:22 GMT
Meaningless garbage.
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Post by thing on Jun 25, 2010 23:59:41 GMT
Stop beating around the bush Tom.
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Post by agentmulder on Aug 16, 2010 8:28:41 GMT
I don't think anyone, certainly not here or elsewhere is qualifyed to say one way or the other what occurs and why during an OBE or NDE. When the heart stops, within minutes the brain activity ceases to operate so technically it shouldn't be possible for awareness during this time. OBE's can be hallucinatory but NDE's for me at least are more interesting. Some questions I would ponder are: 1. If NDE's are a result of the brain shutting down and producing a hallucinatory effect, why is it in the cases where the experiencer meets up with people in the tunnel or light, that these people are dead relatives, friends etc. If this was just a delusion, surely it would be random and they would imagine meeting anyone dead or alive. 2. There are documented cases of people being blind from birth experiencing vision for the first ever time during an NDE with remarkable detail. 3. Patients are able to describe with detail discussions and visual procedures by doctors during an NDE when they are technically dead and or under anthaesthesia. Science tells us that our conciousness is nothing more than neurons in the brain but neurons die and are replaces countless times in our lives yet our basic personality remains throughout our existence. None of this is true....
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Post by antmania on Aug 16, 2010 18:02:30 GMT
None of this is true.... That's a very simplified response. I have read on the subject and everything in my post is well documented and continues to be in further studies of NDE's Like I have said, they do not prove life after death but are intriguing enough to warrant genuine interest and research in my opinion.
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Post by agentmulder on Aug 17, 2010 18:46:09 GMT
No - none of it is true. Read some of the more skeptical stuff (referred to above) which is information of a higher quality. There are no OBEs when the brain is dead and the so called 'detail' is never there. It's an urban myth.
I agree they should be researched - but not by paranormalists with their loaded ideas of the supernatural
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Post by morganp on Aug 18, 2010 15:22:34 GMT
NDE's are consequences of brain function at the point of death and are in most cases a consequence of cerebral anoxia. This has been answered by (to a large degree) Bob. Research (ie proper scientific research) has been carried out since the late 70's and found that NDE's, astral projection etc are neurologically generated and explained by the actions of various drugs or naturally occurring endomorphins - they have nothing to do with 'passing over' to the 'other side', being welcomed by dead relatives or about floating above the operating table.
morganp
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Post by agentmulder on Aug 18, 2010 21:22:09 GMT
NDE's are consequences of brain function at the point of death and are in most cases a consequence of cerebral anoxia . Not quite. These people are not dead and the 'closeness' to death is a philosophical argument. Owens et al (circa 1990) showed quite clearly that people report NDEs when they are no where near being dead (merely thought they were). So they certainly do not happen at the point of death, or uniquely in situations near death. Also anoxia is not a common cause of them - it is neural disinhibition (which can be triggered by anoxia). The article in the skeptic magazine discusses this at great length Anoxia is merely one route - but to claim NDEs are caused by anoxia is a gross over-simplification and in some cases is quite wrong. Hope this helps
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