|
Post by PILLSBURY on Feb 12, 2010 22:06:54 GMT
I have always assumed that out of body experiences are due to the brain being starved of oxygen and because people who have experienced it have explained their adventures and that most tales are a result of the power of suggestion.You know the story,
I was in great pain, suddenly it didnt hurt anymore and I found myself in a corridor or tunnel with a light at the end of it and a voice said "its not your time", next thing I know, im looking down on my body from above then the pain returns and Im back in my body. Thats the usual story but I want to know more about the science on this topic. Has any research been done on which parts of the brain are still active during "death", we have all heard of cases where people have died but modern medicine has revived them quite a while later, what happens during that time to the brain? is there any science to show that the imagination centres of the brain maintain functioning during this moment,is it an after effect of the body dumping huge amounts of adrenalin into your system whilst under stress? and does this adrenalin keep certain parts of the brain operating at the expense of others? I so want there to be life after death and a small part of me still believes in it due to certain personal events that I have mentioned on here in the dim and distant past but these out of body experiences are something worthy of scientific research. What do people think?
|
|
|
Post by asdfg on Feb 12, 2010 23:13:10 GMT
Near Death Experiences (NDEs) and Out of Body Experiences (OBEs) are two different things; although OBEs often occur with NDEs.
Yes, there's a lot of research into OBEs at the moment. At the UK-Skeptics conference last year, Dr. Christine Mohr presented a talk on her OBE research whereby the actual location in the brain that is implicated (if not responsible for) in OBE (and autoscopy) experiences has been found.
If there's a publicly available copy of her paper, I'll upload it.
The importance of such a finding is that OBEs are generated within the brain - the perception that you leave your body (that mind is separate from the brain) is an illusion (albeit a very realistic one).
|
|
|
Post by antmania on Feb 13, 2010 10:10:17 GMT
I don't think anyone, certainly not here or elsewhere is qualifyed to say one way or the other what occurs and why during an OBE or NDE. When the heart stops, within minutes the brain activity ceases to operate so technically it shouldn't be possible for awareness during this time. OBE's can be hallucinatory but NDE's for me at least are more interesting. Some questions I would ponder are:
1. If NDE's are a result of the brain shutting down and producing a hallucinatory effect, why is it in the cases where the experiencer meets up with people in the tunnel or light, that these people are dead relatives, friends etc. If this was just a delusion, surely it would be random and they would imagine meeting anyone dead or alive.
2. There are documented cases of people being blind from birth experiencing vision for the first ever time during an NDE with remarkable detail.
3. Patients are able to describe with detail discussions and visual procedures by doctors during an NDE when they are technically dead and or under anthaesthesia.
Science tells us that our conciousness is nothing more than neurons in the brain but neurons die and are replaces countless times in our lives yet our basic personality remains throughout our existence.
|
|
|
Post by PILLSBURY on Feb 13, 2010 14:21:55 GMT
Now that is what I am talking about,great post Antmania.
|
|
|
Post by asdfg on Feb 13, 2010 20:07:29 GMT
I don't think anyone, certainly not here or elsewhere is qualifyed to say one way or the other what occurs and why during an OBE or NDE. I would think that neuroscientists who are studying this area are perfectly well qualified to say what goes on during NDEs. When the heart stops, within minutes the brain activity ceases to operate so technically it shouldn't be possible for awareness during this time. This is one of the myths regarding NDEs - a flatline EEG simply means that the level of activity in the brain has fallen below the threshold where the detectors on the scalp can pick up the signals. It doesn't mean that the brain has ceased to operate. 1. If NDE's are a result of the brain shutting down and producing a hallucinatory effect, why is it in the cases where the experiencer meets up with people in the tunnel or light, that these people are dead relatives, friends etc. If this was just a delusion, surely it would be random and they would imagine meeting anyone dead or alive. I'm sure I've seen reports of living people turning up during NDEs! Some children have reported NDEs too. The odd thing is that they report meeting up with their favourite cartoon characters when they enter the light. So perhaps cartoon characters exist in the spirit world - or, just perhaps, we have a tendency to see what we would like to see. 3. Patients are able to describe with detail discussions and visual procedures by doctors during an NDE when they are technically dead and or under anthaesthesia. There is some (controversial) psychological research whereby people have had words played to them whilst they're under deep anaesthesia to see whether those words can prime later behaviour when they are awake. Results show that we do actually process information received via the senses even when we're unconscious. There's no evidence, however, to show that people can recall information from an elevated position (words etc. printed on cards only viewable from the elevated position of an OBEer's perspective). Science tells us that our conciousness is nothing more than neurons in the brain but neurons die and are replaces countless times in our lives yet our basic personality remains throughout our existence. Science tells us that consciousness is probably a result of the complex connections of the neurons (it's an emergent property) so the fact that neurons die and are replaced with others doesn't invalidate the materialistic account of consciousness. An axe can have had 2 new heads and 3 new handles in its life - it's completely changed, yet it's still an axe! There's a great critique of NDE research here: The dying brain
|
|
|
Post by antmania on Feb 13, 2010 21:26:48 GMT
Nice response Jigsaw and you raise some interesting alternatives in your post. I agree that in some rare occasions, people do indeed report meeting people that are alive but in terms of percentages, these are very very minimal. Interestingly there are some reports from NDE'rs where they meet up with someone they believe to be still alive but later recieve information that that person had subsequently passed away. As for children meeting cartoon characters I have an alternative explanation. Should the near death experience be a real event, from what I can gather what is experienced in most occasions is that the person (or child) will find themselves in an envirement which is most comfortable to them. For example, a muslim may see 'heaven' as he or she expects initially as a Bhuddist would also or a chistian would see Christ or Mary A child on the other hand having an NDE may be most comforable seeing his/her favourite cartoon charactor or a favourite pet.
Your analogy about the axe reminds me of trigger is Only fools and horses where he states he had his brush for 20 years saying he had 7 new handles and 8 new heads lol However your axe having 2 new heads and 3 handles means it is no longer the same axe, the same as Trigger's brush. From what I understand once electrical signals cease in the brain, you are classified as brain dead so how can the neurons be working to produce a concious memory, hallucinatory or otherwise?
I agree that NDE's are still nowhere near to proving life after death but they are at the moment the nearest we have to seriously researching the subject. Raymond Moody who of course was the pioneer researcher in his book life after life it must be said remained sceptical all his life despite his studies but recently had a personal experience which has finally convinced him that we live on after death. He hasn't publicly stated what happened as yet I should add.
|
|
|
Post by fluffet on Feb 13, 2010 22:12:20 GMT
Ray Moodys got a new book out soon called "Glimpses of Eternity" about shared death experiences...maybe he might mention more in it about his recent personal experiences you mentioned Ant.
What interests me about NDE's is the shared common experiences , i think Moody concluded there were 9 that were common to most people he'd researched including the mentioned seeing a person often a dead relative or friend, travelling through a tunnel , rising upwards or floating , feeling a sense of painlessness and calm etc . Its these common themes and similarities that I find interesting in that although the people experiencing them are from such varied lifes backgrounds medical histories and so on they all seem to have at least three or four experiences in common whilst near death. Is it the shared situation of being near death that prompts these common experiences or could it point more towards something physical or chemical present or common in all humans as a cause ? In life people in a shared situation may all react and experience something vastly different from the other yet in this situation they all seem to share the same kinds of feelings and sights and sounds. Granted death is the ultimate shared experience in that we all have to go through it therefore its not unlikely that there might be this uniformity in some respects to what humans experience when near it ?
|
|
|
Post by asdfg on Feb 13, 2010 22:39:46 GMT
what is experienced in most occasions is that the person (or child) will find themselves in an envirement which is most comfortable to them. For example, a muslim may see 'heaven' as he or she expects initially as a Bhuddist would also or a chistian would see Christ or Mary A child on the other hand having an NDE may be most comforable seeing his/her favourite cartoon charactor or a favourite pet. That seems to be the case. So what can we conclude from the fact that people seem to experience things that are congruent with their cultural beliefs or, in the case of children, limited world view? That they are experiencing an external reality or an internally generated version of reality?
|
|
|
Post by blackadder on Feb 14, 2010 0:12:12 GMT
PILLSBURY:
An OBE is different than a near death experience unless they are the same, meaning forced through death or natural etc. Confusing I know.
Anyway, a OBE is an experience that a human thinks is an OBE but is in actual fact an experience (in my opinion) that is not of our solid world but of a memory of our world or other very similar dimensions that give similar results to our own existence etc.
Pain is pain, emotion is emotion. S a human can read these as long as they ignore their own pain and emotion etc. Thats why dreaming times are the most productive times for psychic ability because of the relaxed deepness etc.
|
|
|
Post by tomroberts on Feb 14, 2010 0:22:10 GMT
blackadder,
Could you explain these "other very similar dimensions" please?
|
|
|
Post by morganp on Feb 14, 2010 10:23:06 GMT
PILLSBURY: An OBE is different than a near death experience unless they are the same, meaning forced through death or natural etc. Confusing I know. Anyway, a OBE is an experience that a human thinks is an OBE but is in actual fact an experience (in my opinion) that is not of our solid world but of a memory of our world or other very similar dimensions that give similar results to our own existence etc. Pain is pain, emotion is emotion. S a human can read these as long as they ignore their own pain and emotion etc. Thats why dreaming times are the most productive times for psychic ability because of the relaxed deepness etc. Could you explain all of that Blackadder. What dimensions are you talking about? and what do you mean by 'a memory of our world'? Dreams are just a hotch potch of random events and have absolutely no proven connection to psychic ability. 'Relaxed deepness'? sounds like the blurb off a packet of Radox. I'm sorry Blackadder but you clothe your posts in terms that are vague and often lost in your own language that you may understand but the rest of us have difficulty in interpreting. Confusing - we know. NDE's are actually hallucinations that are very similar to other types of hallucinations such as those induced by drugs in both form and content. These frequently include images of long tunnels, bright lights and beings 'from the other side' (or cartoon characters or people both living anddead). In most cases the mechanism responsible is cerebral anoxia. When the heart stops (as in the case of severe injury) the brain is deprived of oxygen resulting in impaired neural functions. The effects of cerebral anoxia are well known - initially there is a feeling of well being and power, as the anoxia continues more neurons become impaired making critical judgements difficult, reality becomes increasingly vague and hallucinations begin to occur. Cultural factors, expectancy etc play a role in the imagery but the world over the mechanism described is pretty much the same. morganp
|
|
|
Post by mrjohnno on Feb 15, 2010 7:53:06 GMT
NDEs
|
|
|
Post by morganp on Feb 15, 2010 8:22:58 GMT
Cheers Mr Johnno. The interviewer was more sceptical of a 'bad persons' ability to get to 'the other side' I think he hit the nail on the head at the start of the interview when he suggested that the commonality of all the NDE's the Doc researched were possibly due to prolonged exposure to media and TV accounts of what a typical NDE should contain. The NDE experience has been in the public consciousness for many many years now - like the Alien Abduction experience - and there is a cultural template for both experiences (including OBE's) that contains all the popular elements. This runs parallel with the fact that our neurological functions all work in exactly the same way when experiencing severe trauma and the medical procedures that follow. It would have been interesting to see the Author - a Radiation Oncologist debate the book with a Neurologist or specialist in Brain function. morganp
|
|
|
Post by bobdezon on Feb 15, 2010 13:59:23 GMT
Nice reply Jigsaw, couldnt have said better myself. I suspect (although bear in mind I am no neuroscientist) that the brain being the amazing organ it is, attempts to protect itself (or is a natural byproduct of evolution) in times of extreme duress. For example, if a person dies on the operating table etc, the brain attempts to make the event easier and less stressful for the duration of the remaining consiousness.
Perhaps it replays enjoyable past memories or pleasant experiences? Maybe it just floods the brain with the appropriate chemistry to ease suffering (Endorphins opioids, analgesics and a whole hodgepodge of neurotransmitters). It may even be a primal response and completely randomly generated.
The most common perception I have heard recounted concerning NDE, is that is it a pleasant, and comforting experience, but there have also been accounts where the experience was nightmarish and terrifying. Visions of hellfire and a sensation of falling endlessly etc. Perhaps religious expectation and level of personal belief influence the outcome?
This figure bandied about that 80% of blind people can "see" during an NDE seems to stem from "research" by Dr kenneth ring. I have no idea if this has been peer reviewed, or what the nature of his funding was. His area of expertise though is psychology, so technically it is neuroscience. I suspect it is wishful thinking combined with clinical error, perhaps the test proceedure was flawed?
|
|
|
Post by antmania on Feb 15, 2010 19:16:50 GMT
Bob your posts are normally so solid and sure. This time I see too many "perhaps" "maybe's" and "mays" Yer losing yer touch matey ;D
|
|
|
Post by bobdezon on Feb 16, 2010 0:10:43 GMT
Bob your posts are normally so solid and sure. This time I see too many "perhaps" "maybe's" and "mays" Yer losing yer touch matey ;D Well I did state I am no neuroscientist. The entire post was guesswork, and I make no attempt to disguise it as anything else. They seem (to me) to be reasonable and possible explanations for the event. I could be completely wrong though, which is great for debate.
|
|
|
Post by antmania on Feb 16, 2010 6:05:05 GMT
I know mate. Was just having a bit of fun.
|
|
|
Post by bobdezon on Feb 16, 2010 9:30:20 GMT
|
|
|
Post by oh2cu on Feb 22, 2010 12:22:55 GMT
I don't think anyone, certainly not here or elsewhere is qualifyed to say one way or the other what occurs and why during an OBE or NDE. When the heart stops, within minutes the brain activity ceases to operate so technically it shouldn't be possible for awareness during this time. OBE's can be hallucinatory but NDE's for me at least are more interesting. Some questions I would ponder are: 1. If NDE's are a result of the brain shutting down and producing a hallucinatory effect, why is it in the cases where the experiencer meets up with people in the tunnel or light, that these people are dead relatives, friends etc. If this was just a delusion, surely it would be random and they would imagine meeting anyone dead or alive. 2. There are documented cases of people being blind from birth experiencing vision for the first ever time during an NDE with remarkable detail. [glow=red,2,300]3. Patients are able to describe with detail discussions and visual procedures by doctors during an NDE when they are technically dead and or under anaesthesia.[/glow] Science tells us that our conciousness is nothing more than neurons in the brain but neurons die and are replaces countless times in our lives yet our basic personality remains throughout our existence. Antmania, I have had clients who have described NDE experience s when being resuscitated, some of which I have been present in. All have described with extraordinary accuracy accounts of when, what, who was involved and what occurred during resuscitation with amazing accuracy. One chap was in asystole (flatline) requiring fibrillation and a assortment of medication. He survived with the extraordinary tale to tell us of his experiences in watching us resuscitate him, fortunately he was one of the lucky ones as many others don't get the opportunity to tell.
|
|
|
Post by bobdezon on Feb 22, 2010 14:11:25 GMT
Antmania, I have had clients who have described NDE experience s when being resuscitated, some of which I have been present in. Clients? Are you a medical doctor? Citations? And how was this example determined to not be imagination, but fact?
|
|