The stone tape theory

[PILLSBURY]

So as I understand it many so called hauntings are down to residual hauntings where the energy from certain events is stored in the fabric of the building and under certain circumstances is replayed.
What is the scientific evidence to support this and or debunk this.

[asdfg]

Feb 15, 2010 15:09:43 GMT PILLSBURY said:

What is the scientific evidence to support this

There's none!

[bobdezon]

Feb 15, 2010 15:09:43 GMT PILLSBURY said:

So as I understand it many so called hauntings are down to residual hauntings

According to whom? One has to ask, how the hell they would know with any certainty.

where the energy from certain events is stored in the fabric of the building and under certain circumstances is replayed.
What is the scientific evidence to support this and or debunk this.

As Jigsaw has previously stated, there is no scientific evidence to suggest this is possible. Infact, physically, there is no known method this could even theoretically happen.

Heres a little history on the theory:

Suggested by Thomas Lethbridge as a possible explanation for "residual hauntings" in 1961.

Was adopted by "Parapsychologists" as an explanation for various reported phenomena.

Swooped by Nigel Kneale as a plot device for his 1972 television play "the Stone Tape". This is when it entered the medium of "public knowlege".

Used as an excuse that sounds vaguely plausible to the uneducated, who do not understand what the term "theory" (when applied to science) means.

Oft repeated by the clueless who like the sound of the "theory" because it saves them the trouble of thinking for themselves.

[trystan]

Just to add my voice to Bob and Jigsaw...there is no evidence for the stone tape theory. I bow to Bob for mentioning Lethbridge as he often gets overlooked on this one.

[PILLSBURY]

Now I started this thread to discuss the science of this based on the claims of thousands of people who claim to have seen these types of "residual " hauntings. I respect peoples opinions but something is clearly happening to people for these things to be reported all the time, so play devils advocate and ask if it isnt stone tape or whatever you want to call it,what are the possible explanations? Are there hundreds of people having psychotic events? or suffering hysteria or is it over active imaginations?
I accept that many people are just ooh its a ghost but there are many reports that show people on different days seeing the same thing. So lets discuss this on a "what are the possibilities" basis .

[fluffet]

One of the things about the theories given for residual hauntings involving a "recording being played back" is why do they never include the surroundings and the whole scene as they would any other type of visual recording?
If its tales related of a figure seen tracing the same route or in a repeated cycle as if being "played back" why wouldnt the whole scene be played back including the way the area/location looked at the time it happened as well if it were some form of recording. Why would only the figure be recorded and superimposed on the actual setting.

It always sounds to me like the type of theory put forward that appeals to those who dont believe in an afterlife as being the cause but who cant quite make the leap to finding less paranormal causes , a sort of substitute that they find more reasonable yet in reality is just as unfounded and unsupported as that they already discounted making it equally as pointelss in accepting.

[PILLSBURY]

ok but is it only the person being seen because the other items such as furniture are not sentient and what we are seeing is a self image of a person?

[morganp]

The possible explanations are that people are visiting locations where they have prior knowledge of what happens in terms of visual/auditory and temperature related 'phenomena' and making what they see, feel and hear fit their preconceptions - literally hundreds of people with over active imaginations walking around buildings with draughts and cold spots. Not helped if they watch MH on a regular basis and think it's all true.
There is no mechanism known to science where buildings or places can store and replay past events.
Why do so many people see UFO's or claim Alien Abduction? - because they know what the experience will look and feel like - thousands are still reporting lights in the sky and claiming they're alien spacecraft. Hundreds of people are visiting historic sites and still seeing ghosts - believing is seeing especially if you believed before you saw.

morganp

[fluffet]

I think Morgan has a point about prior expectations and knowledge having an influnence as well as pop culture.

Are there hundreds of people having psychotic events? or suffering hysteria or is it over active imaginations?

All three are possibilities in some cases perhaps Pills but I agree its unlikely that such reasons are the all encompassing or prevalent reason that some favour a little to eagerly.

I think where residual hauntings are concerned its more down to what the human brain looks for and a little of the psychology of how people process things.

For example a sighting may have many mundane less exciting reasons but we are predisposed to the idea of residual hauntings and the theories behind them through popular culture so much so these days that many may process what they see with that in mind more so than more analytical approaches.For some the idea of a returning spirit or recording is more immediate in their thoughts than looking for and finding a less fantastical but at the time less apparent reason.

If you take a residual haunting that is documented back into the past as having occured for decades maybe even hundreds of years the story or legend has already been formed and established often with witnesses that have long since shuffled of this coil themselves....when a recent sighting is recorded its being compared or related as being identical to these previous ones each based on the knowledge in most cases of the one before or at least often in the knowledge that previous sightings exist.
Its hard to ignore that a little influence may occur in whats reported in regards to that.

The whole theory of a repeat residual hauntings for me would hinge on the same thing , identical preferably being recorded and seen time and again , but how can you rely on whats being reported as being identical ? People tend to elaborate or look for patterns or familiar fitting details to what they have heard reported before , if we are to believe its a recording it should be identical each time its seen (unless its showing different recorded scenes each time which isnt generally whats related in most accounts)

Say theres a grey lady that is seen retracing her steps through a building on a route that follows the old layout of that location, Shes been seen from back in the day to present following the same route so witnesses say.The trouble is how do you discount any previous knowledge of legend theres influence and if its the tape theory how do you confirm the sighting is identical each time ?

It would be interesting to find some cases where there wasnt a historical instance of previous sightings and to be able to properly interview and compare witnesses sightings , It may result in finding that the sightings are not infact identical recording style as such but similar perhaps because a more mundane cause repeating itself such as enviromental or it may throw up inconsistancies that hint at a little more elaboration than was first thought. The historical ones tend to be so far back and ingrained in the history of the location theres no reliable witness information to compare or use to detect a possible cause.

The thing is as soon as something is classed as residual there is a template created for anyone to subscribe to and its hard to discount expectation and a little misconception in anyone reporting seeing it.

I guess residual hauntings have to start as a first time sighting somewhere, what if someone does mistake a shadow or whatever normal type cause you want to pick for example , they report it and it gets picked up on , say a newspaper or investigation team get involved and apply a possible person it could be that once lived there or fit it to a historical tale around the location , then its built on till someone else sees it , they already with the perceptions they have from the previous relation subscribe to the idea its the same thing , and so on and so on till you have a fully formed revisiting sighting that reinforces itself each time someone follows on . It doesnt explain every single thing or case but it does I think offer a possible reason for how residual hauntings give the illusion of a recording thats repeated....what they are actually seeing may not be identical , nor may it even be the same thing thats causing them too see it but the need for it to make sense and have a pattern fitting with the previous one leads people to fit it as best they can.

I just think the recording thing would rely on an identical replay like a video each time to give any credence to those that claim the same thing is repeated over and over and feel its more likely to be some enviromental or less paranormal cause that happens frequently but gives only a similar effect not identical one subject to even more differentiations in the person witnessing its perception of it .

What do you reckon Pills ? Im really open to finding out other ideas and what might be influencing the experience for people who see this kind of thing ?

[PILLSBURY]

One of the reasons I started this thread was I have had the pleasure of seeing one of these so called residual hauntings and still cant get my head round it and it happened in the summer of 1986. I witnessed it at the same time as my two sisters and we had only just moved into the town and knew nothing of the story of this haunting. All three of us simultaenously said " whats that?" or words to that effect as we witnessed a woman jumping off Ludlow Castle wall. It was a lovely clear evening,no funny lights and it was clearly a woman jumping, we ran up to the spot where we saw the woman jump and were looking for her,assuming it was a woman who had tried to kill herself. After quite a while looking a man asked us what we were doing and when we explained he told us of the story of the leaping lady.
I raised this subject a long time ago on here and got attacked for it but it happened,three people saw it together and none of us had heard the story.So as well as wanting to explain that night, I just like to read other peoples opinions on these subjects. When I first joined this site these sort of threads were commonplace and this site is lacking a good debate at the moment.

[bobdezon]

Feb 15, 2010 19:10:24 GMT PILLSBURY said:

Now I started this thread to discuss the science of this based on the claims of thousands of people who claim to have seen these types of "residual " hauntings.

In fairness, they can claim whatever they like. First one has to establish if their claims are genuine. If they are genuine, then one must attempt to determine the actual cause. It should also be mentioned that a genuine claim does not necessarily equate genuine paranormal phenomena, and the amount of people claiming similar experience has no bearing on the likelyhood of the paranormal being a reality. Null hypothesis is a nice way to start.

I respect peoples opinions but something is clearly happening to people for these things to be reported all the time,

Several things are clearly happening. Listed in no particular order.

Sometimes it is a lie (attention, kudos, fame or infamy).

Sometimes the claimant misinterprets natural phenomena. (heat expansion/contraction, missing comparative data etc)

Sometimes the claimant is misled, and psychological induction occurs (tales of previous tenants who met with grisly ends).

Sometimes the claimant experiences something outside of their normal scope of experience, and they attempt to "fill in the blanks" (apophenia of occular or aural nature).

There is of course the 5th option of it being genuinely paranormal in nature (but considering the lack of any evidence is unlikely).

so play devils advocate and ask if it isnt stone tape or whatever you want to call it,what are the possible explanations?

There are as many valid possible reasons, as there are people claiming the experience.

Are there hundreds of people having psychotic events? or suffering hysteria or is it over active imaginations?

Unfortunately, these are a condition of the human species. It is a natural occurance for some and should not be dismissed as a valid explanation.

I accept that many people are just ooh its a ghost but there are many reports that show people on different days seeing the same thing. So lets discuss this on a "what are the possibilities" basis .

Can you cite a particular case? It is difficult to work in the abstract when you need specific answers.

[PILLSBURY]

Here you go ,this is a link to show me and my sisters werent alone in seeing the leaping lady

www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/features/halloween/halloween_ludlow.shtml

[bobdezon]

Feb 16, 2010 8:49:34 GMT PILLSBURY said:

Here you go ,this is a link to show me and my sisters werent alone in seeing the leaping lady

www.bbc.co.uk/shropshire/features/halloween/halloween_ludlow.shtml

It's a decent (but typical) ghost story. There are many others similar (if not identical) in folklore from all over the world. However it is unlikely that what you and your sisters saw was the ghost/spirit/reenactment of Marion La Bruyere.

The small problem with that theory is that Marion La Bruyere was a fictional character from the 12th century romantic manuscript entitled Fulk FitzWarin. Here is a synopsis of that document.

tinyurl.com/ykdd83b

So considering that the folklore states this event was true, and it is still being reported by witnesses (such as yourself) then perhaps a subtle psychological influence is the actual cause of sightings like this? Makes you think, doesn't it?

[PILLSBURY]

I still dont understand how I saw what I saw when I had absolutely no prior knowledge of this haunting prior to seeing it. I had never seen the story written down,never spoken to anyone about the history of the castle and neither had my sisters.

In terms of the history, ironically I discovered late last year that I can trace my family tree back to the builders of the castle and as you say that name is fictional but the three of us still saw the woman jump that day.

Now what is interesting is that most sightings are reported in the summer and usually early evening so is there some sort of optical effect that could create it? I dont know if thats the case or its just because more people are out in the summer and you cant see someone in the dark but I still ask "what did the three of us see?" if it wasnt a ghost what was it?

[isthisnametaken]

Maybe the name is fictional but the event not?

[bobdezon]

Feb 16, 2010 14:03:21 GMT PILLSBURY said:

I still dont understand how I saw what I saw when I had absolutely no prior knowledge of this haunting prior to seeing it. I had never seen the story written down,never spoken to anyone about the history of the castle and neither had my sisters.

Perhaps all three of you did have some prior knowlege, but simply could not remember it? There have been cases where information a person claims they did not know was someow retained years after glancing at it in a book. The information did not even register to the person, yet the memory of what they had read influenced them, and they could recall it under hypnosis.

In terms of the history, ironically I discovered late last year that I can trace my family tree back to the builders of the castle and as you say that name is fictional but the three of us still saw the woman jump that day.

I believe that you believe you saw a woman jumping/falling. Most witnesses that report this type of thing are totally convinced their reports are accurate. However, as sincere as you are, it is difficult to provide evidence to support your claim. Until this can be rectified, the account remains anecdotal.

Now what is interesting is that most sightings are reported in the summer and usually early evening so is there some sort of optical effect that could create it? I dont know if thats the case or its just because more people are out in the summer and you cant see someone in the dark but I still ask "what did the three of us see?" if it wasnt a ghost what was it?

I really do not know. Perhaps it was an illusion caused by a combination of optical effects based upon your position/time of day/tiredness level etc etc. It is quite hard to pinpoint exactly what could have caused it, without going into greater detail.

[bobdezon]

Feb 16, 2010 18:04:23 GMT isthisnametaken said:

Maybe the name is fictional but the event not?

Maybe, but that is what we call retrofitting. We cannot make excuses to fit the account and make it possible, we can only rely upon evidence. I have no doubt during it's history, someone fell off the walls. However it might have been on the other side, or it was a man etc etc.

[isthisnametaken]

Feb 17, 2010 0:37:01 GMT bobdezon said:

Feb 16, 2010 18:04:23 GMT isthisnametaken said:

Maybe the name is fictional but the event not?

Maybe, but that is what we call retrofitting. We cannot make excuses to fit the account and make it possible, we can only rely upon evidence. I have no doubt during it's history, someone fell off the walls. However it might have been on the other side, or it was a man etc etc.

I wasn't trying to make an excuse I was giving another point of view. I have not looked into the subject so was wondering if a real event became a story with names changed. Why? I don't know. Perhaps it was to prevent prolonged agony, shame or whatever to the persons family. Or maybe it is only a story. Like I said, I don't know

It is a case which is not answerable with any absolute certainty. Even if there had been prior knowledge it does not explain why three people would appear to see the same thing at the same time. What was the trigger? I am wondering if perhaps PILLSBURY and his two companions had been discussing hauntings prior to the visit. If so and there was prior knowledge perhaps that was it?
I remain skeptical still that three people would see the same thing unless it happened.

[PILLSBURY]

We had only just moved to the town had not read any history on the place in fact our discussion on our walk was about how pretty the place was but there didnt seem much to do.It was 7pm we were all young and healthy(15,20 and 24),there was no element of tiredness but its a fair point to discuss as we all know alot of so called hauntings can be considerd to be from this. Yes it is only anecdotal as there is no film evidence,scientific proof and I accept that.
As for they fell from another wall or it was a man, we will never know as there are no documents to prove or disprove.
However as much as I try to put all logical arguements to the event i still cannot come to terms with what we all saw that night and it will always be something I will question until my dying day.

[bobdezon]

Feb 17, 2010 5:59:44 GMT isthisnametaken said:

I wasn't trying to make an excuse I was giving another point of view. I have not looked into the subject so was wondering if a real event became a story with names changed. Why? I don't know. Perhaps it was to prevent prolonged agony, shame or whatever to the persons family. Or maybe it is only a story. Like I said, I don't know

That is still called retrofitting. I understand what you mean, you are just seeking possible explanations for the reported occurance. However seeking ways to make the data fit the circumstance is unfortunately, classic retrofitting. Why is retrofitting a bad thing? Simply because it is prone to so much error.

It is a case which is not answerable with any absolute certainty. Even if there had been prior knowledge it does not explain why three people would appear to see the same thing at the same time. What was the trigger? I am wondering if perhaps PILLSBURY and his two companions had been discussing hauntings prior to the visit. If so and there was prior knowledge perhaps that was it?
I remain skeptical still that three people would see the same thing unless it happened.

Actually, it does explain quite well how three (or more) people can swear they saw the same thing, only to be mistaken. There are many examples of just such an occurance happening.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria

Also, eyewitness reports are notoriously bad.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4177082.stm

People only remember parts of events, not the event as a whole. They confer with each other to fill in the blanks. It is a well known psychological condition.