The stone tape theory

[fluffet]

I think its more what did Pills actually see 24 years ago that sparked the whole incident thats at the core of the questions he has ...as valid as the shared memory/false memory/after embelishement effects may be on how someone relates or remembers a sighting I got the impression he was more interested in what might have caused him and his sisters to think they saw a woman jump back then in the first place.

Ie Bobs example of the binbag/coat etc or the possibility of somekind of enviromental factor giving the impression of a jumper.
Ok its really hard to come up with ideas on what might have caused it without knowing every possible detail and factor that might have given a visual illusion or caused all three to see something that looked like a woman jump but I felt that was more what he was getting at than a belief that it was something paranormal.

I feel that its more likely there was acutually something they all saw that caused them to perceive it as a falling woman than somekind of total hallucination ...its what that something was thats the answer to Pills then being able to recognise how after it the sight may have been changed or added to or reinforced to further make the idea of it being a woman stronger.

If all three of them say witnessed an optical illusion of somesort then its what that was that to me seems the main thing Pills wants to discover , how that was effected by shared memory and the way the mind remebers things is important also but its easier to accept that or understand how you might have been suceptable to it if you first know what the prompt for it was .

[asdfg]

Feb 20, 2010 21:07:49 GMT fluffet said:

I feel that its more likely there was acutually something they all saw that caused them to perceive it as a falling woman than somekind of total hallucination

That's what we've actually been saying - no one's saying that a mass hallucination is a likely cause.

They saw something, one perceived it as a woman, a conversation ensued, and the shared memory phenomenon ensures that all of their perceptions, memories and accounts converge.

That's not the explanation; but it is a possible real-world scenario.

.

[fluffet]

Ive been googline ludlow castle 1986 just to see if there was anything on in the grounds of the castle around the time you saw what you did Pills .
What I was interested in was if there was some kind of historical re enactment society or if there could have been something on at the castle that might have accounted for period dressed characters being in the vicinity at least.?(i dunno i was hoping to find maybe the lob a dummy off the roof every year or something )

It may have nothing at all to do with what you saw but I did find this -

www.ludlowfestival.co.uk/

It seems theres a festival there late june early july (would that have been around the time ?)
What caught my eye was there is an open air theatre in the grounds ...with performances on in 86....could there have been somekind of re enactment or rehersal that might have involved anything that could explain what you saw ?

I know little about the area to be honest or if the productions extend to the actual castle walls themselves etc but it might be worthwhile looking back to 86 and what was happening at the castle around that time for any kind of hint as to what you saw ?

[Amaris]

I agree with Fluffet, and please correct us if wrong Pills!

My understanding of your post describing the incident is that you and your Sisters all at the same time witnessed visually the impression that someone had jumped off the building. Pillsbury, I feel, is looking to find alternative reasons for that impression, not the shared memory etc but physical or for instance weather conditions which could create this kind of phenomenon.

I do feel that most posts (this poetry thing I have going on is good lately!) do lean more toward the psychology of the incident which is not the direction I think Pillsbury meant it to go??

[asdfg]

Well Pillsbury did not see a woman jumping to her death - I think that we can all agree on that at least.

If 3 people all saw it, then something was there - unless you go for the mass hallucination explanation (although no one has).

If that something wasn't a woman then it was (obviously) something else - so we're dealing with a misperception.

Could they all have misperceived this 'something' in the same way? Possibly, but it's more likely that they talked about it and in doing so, converged on an account that they all agreed on - the 'shared memory' phenomenon (remember, memories are [re]constructions; they're not recordings!).

I really can't see what's wrong with that reasoning as a likely scenario for what happened as a real-world alternative to it being a ghost!

If the aim is to simply say what that 'something' was, then it's an impossible task.

[Amaris]

Feb 21, 2010 10:39:53 GMT @asdfg said:

Well Pillsbury did not see a woman jumping to her death - I think that we can all agree on that at least.

If 3 people all saw it, then something was there - unless you go for the mass hallucination explanation (although no one has).

If that something wasn't a woman then it was (obviously) something else - so we're dealing with a misperception.

Could they all have misperceived this 'something' in the same way? Possibly, but it's more likely that they talked about it and in doing so, converged on an account that they all agreed on - the 'shared memory' phenomenon (remember, memories are [re]constructions; they're not recordings!).

I really can't see what's wrong with that reasoning as a likely scenario for what happened as a real-world alternative to it being a ghost!

If the aim is to simply say what that 'something' was, then it's an impossible task.

I personally do feel the explanations given are valid reasoning but I felt from reading Pillsbury's posts he didn't feel they gave him an answer. There is the emotional aspect of experiencing something like this which does change our perceptions of events. Of course I am presuming! Sorry Pills.

[asdfg]

Feb 22, 2010 1:08:06 GMT Amaris said:

There is the emotional aspect of experiencing something like this which does change our perceptions of events.

I agree.

We have a tendency to trust our senses as being 100% true - if they've 'seen something for myself' it's almost impossible to get them to admit they may have been mistaken.

Our memories etc. 'feel' just as real when they're false as when they're true so it is very difficult to accept they may not be accurate.

I'm sure many skeptics have argued with people who've seen ghosts while claiming something like "I was in bed but I wasn't asleep when...", and then explained hypnagogia to them as the explanation only to find that although these people accept what you're saying, they don't think it's what happened to them - their reason being "I saw it".

Then you explain the 'realness' of these experiences - they're hallucinatory but feel entirely real.

Then....

They still won't accept it because..... "I saw it".

[antmania]

Just one theoretical question here.
There seems to be little doubt that Pills and the other 2 present saw 'something' falling. What if 10 people, or 20 or more people saw this and came to the same conclusion that it was a woman falling?
Would that still be a lack of judgement on the part of the crowd witnessing this? Would that be mass hallucination? Would they all be wrong and it was in fact an object resembling a woman falling?

Hey I don't know. I know time can be an illusion but something so dramatic as this would leave a burning imprint in your mind.

[mrjohnno]

Feb 26, 2010 17:19:15 GMT antmania said:

What if 10 people, or 20 or more people saw this and came to the same conclusion that it was a woman falling?

I only interject here because of the previous posts... This flavour of woo is not my thing.

Numbers

Rounding things up, you have around 1.3 billion total believers in Islam and Catholicism. Since they cannot both be right you have around (at minimum) 1.3 billion people who have been fooled.

[antmania]

With respect, what the hell has religious belief got to do with 3 people seeing something or someone falling or my previous theoretical question?
If you think Pills is making the story up then just come out and say it instead of this stupid religious analogy.