Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Dec 14, 2009 17:27:11 GMT
Every week on my facebook account I get contacted by psychics and mediums, usually their aim is to befriend me in the small hope it will keep them off BadPsychics, but usually as soon as they take part in a conversation with me they will get all defensive, and as soon as I ask for a reading they come up with the usual excuses such as
"Why should I prove myself to you"
"I dont need to prove myself"
And so on, the fact they contacted me in the first place seems lost on their little minds.
Anyway this week I was contacted by a psychic Trance Medium by the name of Jay Love (Now known as Jason Anastas), nope I hadn't heard of him either, but like many mediums these days he has a very high opinion of himself.
So what do we have here? Is Jay Love just another Gary Mannion? A man who is so desperate for fame and fortune that he will do almost anything to get it? Or could he possibly be the real deal?
I read the rest of the article Jon and the correspondence between you both.
Jay's first contact with you via Facebook did come across as a blokey jokey attempt to judge your reaction or knowledge of him, he blatantly went down the route of assuming you both shared Greek heritage and thought he'd utilise that in a familiar way much like someone seeing my profile would say "ach eye the noo whits aw this aboot no liking mediums " and wait to see if my reaction was more welcoming because they were from and talked the same way.
But the simple fact is you wouldnt even bother to leave a comment far less try to tailor it that way unless it was an opener to something more detailed you wanted to say or bait for a discussion you wanted the other to start rather than appear to have started it yourself.
This is clearer as the emails ping back and forth, you clear up your position towards him and he retorts by picking up on subjects and things within the emails that avoid the actual subject that has led him and you to comment in the first place. The assumptions begin , he avoids directly answering most points and concentrates on ones he wants to.All the while perpetuating and almost trying to encourage you to say he is a fake or that you are aware of him as a means to transfer the discussion to his actual point that he doesn't like the way BP or you feel about or portray mediums.
He uses all the usual familiar traits of anyone who when discussing a subject cannot simply stick to the subject but instead prefers to incorporate as much personal assumptions and guessed positions of the other involved as possible in a passive aggressive way that usually affords them the reaction they wish in most but will fail miserably in someone who is aware or used to this kind of tactic.
If he wants an appraisal then he can have it. His website is the usual fair, his back story is the familiar type common to most mediums ,he has a guide "Japar" as most do , what he offers is again nothing new and makes the same claims and promises that most every other Mediumistic Tom, Dick or Harry make.
In short he does not appear to be anything special , nor does he stand out anymore or less than the thousands of others ive seen or read about before, should he provide some reason to give him my attention in an evidential way for or against him fair enough but since so far ive seen nothing of interest other than a bit of banal rhetoric from him i doubt he's ever really going to fire anyones interest nevermind BP members.
Post by The Legendary Barb on Dec 14, 2009 22:51:49 GMT
I too read the posts Jon, and I do agree with Fluff, though what she said is by far more in depth than I could have hoped to have posted. I think this man is looking to gain notoriety and what better way than to be "outed" by B P. He can then claim he is in the company of, and list all who have gone down this road before him. He would in theory put himself along side names who are in effect household ,media names. I M H O nice try Jay. If in the future you are proved beyond doubt to be genuine I will of cause apologize, until then I will remain a skeptic and reserve judgment.
The following comments by Terry have been removed, i agreed to do this as Terry is an elderly gentleman and despite his comments being from first hand experience, Jay Love has decided to threaten Terry with legal action, and Terry has asked me to remove them, so I have done so.
I think it is very sad when a self proclaimed psychic feels the need to threaten elderly people all in an effort to protect himself and his income.
Terry has forwarded his address to Jay so that his solicitors can speak directly with him. I for one will offer my full support to Terry as I think it is a disgrace that someone like Jay could put an elderly respected man like Terry in such a hard position.
If people can really believe that Gary Mannion's picture /portrait or whatever of Abraham, is a "real" likeness when it looks like a childs paint by numbers, then why not people believe they saw Js face "change" and look like someone they knew. If people want it enough they will see or hear it. Of course he associates with such esteemed mediums, must'nt forget that ha ha;D
Doubting Gods existence is ok and perfectly acceptable within Christianity as long as the person doubting remains OBEDIENT and Committed to the CHRISTIAN PATH. said in 2004 on radio Real Live Preacher. I get it now even if you don't want to its ok cause you will still do it confused.
As I have said in the past I am an inbetweenie. I have had experiences that even using all of the rationality you display on here, I could not explain. I also I have said before, I, to my knowledge, have not seen or heard "spirit" I did not see any changes, then I was at the back. Your guests on here have explained many times what they believe is happening to the believers that see and hear all of these wonderful things, I cannot add to it.
I have been tempted to do a Joshua by relating my "anecdotal" stories, but chickened out.
Post by Mr. Jon Donnis on Dec 16, 2009 19:43:18 GMT
Terry, despite disagreeing about what you do for a living, I do respect your opinion. So please give me your honest full opinions of what Jay does, you have actually seen him, so would like to know your opinion.
Infact if you can give a good skeptical opinion i'll even publish it on the main site with a link to your site too
A bad ass who will beat you like he's using the fists of god.
That would be a great idea Terry and please do share your experiences. Whilst anecdotes may not be evidence they are still of interest as they help us understand more about so-called psychics and mediums and what they do as well as your own experiences. I'll put my hands up and admit even as a skeptic there are a couple of things I have experienced that I find hard to explain but what I always say is that simply because I can't explain everything does not mean to say it has to have a supernatural explanation. I know I would be interested to hear about your experiences with Jay
"Dont forget to cover your bum, or you'll get a red bum"
I am always happy to share my experiences. Just to repeat, I am 73 and do not do what I do for a living, the people that come to me have been recommended by someone I have helped to change no matter what it was. I am not touting for work, but I did suggest you read feedback on my site, also my brief recollections. I know my site has a lot of woo on it. For me, what I do is a hobby, at the same helping people to make their life better.
My introduction to mediums was 53 years ago, I took my wife to a medium, a friend had been to this lady and was impressed. I sat and watched and listened, I sat thinking, "how does she do that"? she turned to me and said. "You don't want a reading, you want to know how it all works" I have been looking for answers since then. This site and the book on cold reading have been part of my learning. I cover all of this on my site. What I have found, many times, when I have had people in a relaxed state, I have experienced what I thought was telepathy, they would question, when back to full awareness, what I had thought. Also when demonstrating the ideo motor response with a pendulum, the person reacts before I have said what I want them to do. For many years I wondered if this is what happens with 'mediums' when in one to one, do they pick up on the thoughts of the clients, what they want out of life etc and just tell them what they want to hear. I have pointed out, that not all mediums have the intellect to do cold reading so there must be something else.
I have had trance reading with Jay, his voice does change completely. I have no memories of the reading except that we ended up talking theology, and without wishing to seem rude to Jay, what we discussed seemed above his intellect. The session went well past my allotted time with TS friend banging on the door. It was very interesting. I had similar discussions 40years ago with Ivy Northages Chan. Just to point out I make no claim to be intelligent or superior in any way, but after 73yrs you do pick up a little knowledge on many subjects. Over the years I think I have had most experiences of what you call woo, it's the only way I learn, personal experiences. As you have discovered the majority of people want to know where their future lies, so they seek out the mediums? The problem I see, is that some people act on what they have been told.
I have had trance reading with Jay, his voice does change completely.
The whole voice change thing can be impressive to some (what did you think about it ?) but its one thing thats never really convinced me in others in that i can mimic reasonably convincingly ive been told from a young age any accent or tone of voice within a few seconds of hearing it. So much so ive played jokes on mates and family on the blower and once even managed to pull off the voice of an elderly male relative from Oz id only heard a few times. For me the ability to do that in myself leaves me less impressed when i see it in others ...its the old "if i can do it then its not that hard" thing for me .What would impress me slightly more was if the medium suddenly began relating information in the exact voice and accent complete with familiar wording used by someone they had no hints or information on whatsover before hand.
But as Jay also claims to be a transconfigurational medium as well i was wondering if he did this in his reading with you personally ? Ive seen mediums claim to do this on TV or video but other than a little obvious facial adjustment or a bit of gurning ive never experienced anything that i felt had really transformed their features enough to say it appeared to be anothers face. I have experienced a medium who appeared to take on some very accurate mannerisims of a loved one that she hadnt been made aware of by myself but again i couldnt be sure i wasnt simply picking up on things she herself did that were the same as the person by coincidence.
What i would say is i think sometimes people can be incredibly deceptive in what they allow others to perceive about them , sometimes not even particularly consciously. We tend to stereotype and label as a norm and i have been happily surprised at the knowledge or intellect or interest of someone on subjects that id otherwise perceived by their actions, appearance and persona to be something id have thought them to have no interest in. People particularly nowadays have so many varied interests and the ability to gain knowledge on them in ways that we might not instantly associate with them ....i can and often do have incredibly fluffy and silly conversations with people that may not hint at a deeper interest or intelligence in more serious matters, my appearance can often be scruffy (i prefer funky street which might indicate to some a younger less conventional outlook that balks at the thought of authority but i kick ass regularly in a boardroom in a corporate greys where i have to gain confidence and respect.
What i often wonder is how much of "the dumb" or "the stoopid" we see in people who stand to gain from giving us this perception of them whilst hiding a far more perceptive and calculating side is real to varying degrees ? Having never met Jay i cant comment with any certainty in his particular case but on a more general way ive seen intentional or not a lot of mediums use this "im a bit kooky silly me " or the "im no expert " kind of personality then carry on to show entirely different sides of their character that hint at a far deeper sense of how to manipulate or use language and other peoples emotions to their whim.
Perhaps its more of a knowledge of emotional intelligence they apply than a more conventional intelligence when plying their trade ?
Im not sure eitherway and of course its entirely different for each person you look at , but its something that i often think may explain the way they work .
Fluffet, all you say is true, I can't argue with any of it, but the age that I am I like to think I could tell when someone is faking it, also doing what I do, I am able to recognise when someone is in an altered state. Of course they may be able to put themselves into an altered state to take on the persona. I have come to the conclusion that all mediums do this to a lesser degree. I have always said, just because someone can copy what a medium does, it does not mean it is not real. I know appearences can be deceptive, Susan Boyle is a good example.
My reason for visiting someone like Jay is because of my interest in how they work. At 73 I am not going to ask. 'will I be successful in business? done that. Will I meet a lady? done that ;D will I be rich? comfortable. After all that I learnt on here and the cold reading book, I still cannot write off what they do because of the things that I have experienced.
Id imagine you have plenty of life experience Terry that would equip you with a good sense of when someones blatantly pulling your leg or not with 73 years under your belt id agree thats a definate bonus and one you would and do apply well.
Thats not to say mind you i havent come across the odd older and wiser in many ways person who has been taken in by a fake of some kind usually because of a situation or circumstance that is very close to their heart being involved ...no matter what age that can and does often have a strange effect on peoples ability to reason.
In your case as you say your interest is how it works and not so much at all from the place someone who is looking for contact or info from a loved one which affords you the greater ability to be more skeptical.
Im interested in the idea of a medium putting themselves in an altered state to create the persona they require , the trouble for me is what is that altered state ? Is it just simply relaxation that allows them to shut out the usual mind noise and concentrate more on what they are trying to portray ? Is there more to this altered state in that it allows them to communicate somehow with the sitters thoughts rather than with the dead and if thats what you mean how do you think that may be possible ?
I agree being able to copy something doesnt mean you are acheiving it by the same means as the medium is but it is a more likely explaination than some of the ones they offer.
I think what interests me more is that you clearly have studied cold reading and mediums for a long time, are aware of all the possible techniques and tricks that might be applied in the trade , but with this knowledge and experience of decades you still feel theres parts of it you just cant write off . That experience and knowledge to someone like me who hasnt been searching for nearly as long isnt easily ignorable and it does resonate with me and raise questions because my father who is of a similar age to you and who has studied the "how do they do that " of mediums for many years also is of the same opinion as you ...he cannot write it off but is equally aware of all the things you mention .
Terry, thanks for all the info so far. Be great to hear about your experiences with Jay. Just out of interest as this is sceptic-oriented forum what are your general views of sceptics or scepticism? I ask as I am often interested in how others view us.